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Post by notsorecentconvert on Nov 23, 2014 14:28:38 GMT
Interesting to hear Jimmy Gray comment on the size of the crowd in the Havant & Waterlooville post-match interview on the club's site.
At 349 it was the second lowest crowd in the Conference South yesterday. Only Boreham Wood attracted fewer, and their crowds are generally low despite the fact they are top of the table. There were only two smaller crowds in the Conference North yesterday too.
The recent poor home form was possibly a contributing factor, as was the miserable weather and the fact that there are only four Christmas shopping Saturdays left. But the biggest factor must surely be the £15 entrance price.
I said before the season began that if the team's home results were poor the crowd might dip to Southern League Premier Division levels and that trend is setting in.
953 v Concord in the FA Cup 458 v Whitehawk 344 v Farnborough 349 v H & W
I wonder if anyone in charge at the club has admitted to themselves that they've made a mistake?
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Post by bob666 on Nov 23, 2014 14:49:56 GMT
Agreed. On a closely related point I was at the game yesterday and while I pleased we won I did not think it was a great spectacle. If I been paying less I would not have minded but I left the ground with a feeling of ambivalence. On the one hand pleased we won on the other I was thinking that I just payed 15 quid to watch what was (in my opinion) a very poor game of football. If we going to charge £15, rightly or wrongly punters will feel they have a right to watch entertaining football. In addition to being small the crowd were very quiet, I wonder if this partly a result of the price creating demands and exceptions, so effects not only numbers but how people behave in the ground
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Post by notsorecentconvert on Nov 23, 2014 15:08:54 GMT
The ticket price had a bearing on my decision yesterday. I knew it would be touch and go whether I could get to St Albans for 3pm and the idea of paying £15 and missing even the first five minutes swung it.
I agree with you Bob. Having supported a league club during the era when ticket prices went from cheap to justifiable to affordable to ludicrous, I have watched the nature of crowd behaviour change. Unconditional support is a thing of the past for many. Ticket prices are too high to be able to shrug your shoulders and say: "Oh well, you win some, you lose some." Expectations are higher. We've seen Mourinho criticise Chelsea's supporters for their lack of vocal support and I'm sure the price is a big factor. If you're paying £40-£50 the onus is on the team to entertain and deliver the result, not on the fans. I think the same thing applies, just on a smaller scale. If you charge the highest price in the division, expectation levels are set before the game kicks off.
The other issue is that small crowds do not strengthen the club's case when it comes to making the argument for a new stadium. In a city of 60,000, crowds of 350 give the impression the club is irrelevant, sadly.
With the size of Wealdstone's travelling support and Hemel's proximity, the club *should* be in line for a couple of big crowds in the next month.
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knockers
Saints Reserve Team Player
Posts: 283
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Post by knockers on Nov 23, 2014 19:21:22 GMT
Message to board at sacfc, would you prefer 700 cheering team than 350. prices should come down slighty and ebcourage fans to attend over xmas. COYS
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Post by notsorecentconvert on Nov 23, 2014 19:35:08 GMT
You've hit the nail on the head there, Knockers. A bigger crowd (at a lower price) means the possibility of more programme sales, more money going across the bar, more food being purchased, not to mention a better atmosphere that might persuade people to come back. The atmosphere at the Concord game, with the singing behind the goal, was great.
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Post by bob666 on Nov 23, 2014 20:05:55 GMT
I not sure the club can decrease prices mid season as it would effectively mean that people would be getting in on the day for the approximately the same price as season ticket holders (this would seem inequitable). But the club can and should make a gesture in terms of cup prices. Wealdstone charge 12 quid for home games, why can we charge the same for Saturday FA trophy game- I really think this would generate a good deal of good will.
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Post by Boomer on Nov 23, 2014 20:53:40 GMT
.............But the club can and should make a gesture in terms of cup prices. Wealdstone charge 12 quid for home games, why can we charge the same for Saturday FA trophy game- I really think this would generate a good deal of good will. It is not a question of the club making any gestures, Bob. Under the rules of the competition, the admission prices for F.A. Trophy games have to be mutually agreed between both clubs, if those prices are likely to exceed the minimum stated, which will be the case for next Saturday's game against Wealdstone. I imagine the general admission will probably be £12 and concessions around £7 - £8. That's only my take on it. I can see there being a very decent crowd for this game, especially if the weather holds up, possibly 1,000 plus. It also would not surprise me to see the crowd being segregated,
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Post by ex-saintswebbo on Nov 23, 2014 21:08:52 GMT
you obviously haven't read the official website today Boomer (I wonder why I bother.....!)
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Post by Saint on Nov 23, 2014 21:10:49 GMT
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Post by notsorecentconvert on Nov 23, 2014 21:38:37 GMT
Nuts. The failure of supposedly bright people to grasp simple economic theory is astonishing.
All they can think is that having £3 more from each supporter who steps through the turnstile will be "better". But it has already proven not to be the case.
Very successful businessmen in their other walks of life, no doubt, but they're making mistakes here.
Still, it's their club, they can charge what they like, I suppose. That's how football at all levels operates now.
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Post by Boomer on Nov 23, 2014 22:02:57 GMT
you obviously haven't read the official website today Boomer (I wonder why I bother.....!) Apologies, saintswebbo, I missed that. RULES OF THE FA CHALLENGE TROPHY COMPETITION Clearly then, Wealdstone are in agreement with these ridiculous prices.
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Post by notsorecentconvert on Nov 23, 2014 22:09:04 GMT
Both as bad as each other. Wealdstone really shouldn't be encouraging St Albans City.
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Post by bob666 on Nov 24, 2014 1:19:46 GMT
Having decided on £15 for league games it was always going to be difficult for the club to go back on the decision but what really annoys me is that when the club have had the opportunity to make a gesture to supporters they have instead taken actions that almost seem designed to further irritate supporters- I thinking here about the Herts Senior Cup and next weeks match. I had a look at Hemel's attendances as they represent the nearest counterfactual. A club who were promoted and froze prices. Assuming there a link between attendance and performance we are averaging 1.38 points a game this season, whereas Hemel are averaging 1.6 a game. Last season we averaged 1.93, Hemel 2.31. So we have dropped 0.55 points a game, Hemel 0.71 from last year to this on that basis: 2013/14 14/15 St Albans City (P) Conference South 515 495 -3.88 Hemel Hempstead T (P) Conference South 548 555 1.28 Source: www.thelinnets.co.uk/turnstile.php?s=2013Not sure what the significance of this is,as I not sure the extent to which both have artificially inflated attendance through schools incentives over the two periods. If we assume, completely arbitrary, that 0.1 point per game generates a 3.3% swing (so club who lost every game would double their attendance by winning every game ) in attendance then the price rise can be seen to cause about a 12% loss in attendance. While I do not agree with it perhaps £15 is optimal for turnstile revenue but not if we take into account how it effects good will, willingness to volunteer, spending on extras (golden goal etc) and attitude of supporters to the team (get behind them when losing etc ) Also for a local businessperson I see only two commercial reasons to own a non league club 1) Good PR 2) Opportunities for commercial development related to new ground, which would depend on club being well regarded in the community and this able to pressure council etc.How either of these are served by such high admission prices puzzles me- any savings made to the owners through high prices are a false economy.
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Post by Ex-HertsAd, Still Mike on Nov 26, 2014 13:38:45 GMT
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Post by cheshuntsaint on Nov 26, 2014 13:47:55 GMT
I'm glad we are charging the £15, hopefully Wealdstone fans will be put off and not turn up - the filthy rats - suggesting that 300 away fans is a big is laughable.
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Post by notsorecentconvert on Nov 26, 2014 14:36:20 GMT
Good to see the Herts Ad tackle the question.
Mr Archer is missing the point. He says the club is losing money and so needs bigger attendances. Wrong. The club is losing money so needs more REVENUE.
That could be achieved by having a larger crowd paying a lower price or a smaller crowd paying a higher price. I'm sure Mr Archer and co's ideal would be to have a larger crowd paying a higher price but the facts already bear out that that is not sustainable. In my experience, no matter what level you are operating at, complaining that the supporters aren't turning up never really works out too well. Why not ask some of the 400-600 stay-aways why they didn't come to the Farnborough or Havant games?
Anyway, some figures: 750 at £15 is £11,250 500 at £15 is £7,500 350 at £15 is £5,250
750 at £12 is £9,000 500 at £12 is £6,000 350 at £12 is £4,200
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Post by Boomer on Nov 26, 2014 15:05:55 GMT
Spot on but we shouldn't forget that of all those monies quoted, 16.67% of it winds its weary way to the VATman.
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Post by notsorecentconvert on Nov 26, 2014 15:31:46 GMT
Of course, Boomer. The point was that 500 at £12 is better than 350 at £15. Crowds are also more likely to hold up better at £12 – it's not a guarantee, of course, but price would be less of a discouraging factor if it were lower. It also means there are 150 extra people in the ground to spend on other things. And at £12 people will be more inclined to spend on other things.
But no, the chairman says it's disappointing the crowds are low. Not so disappointing as to reassess a poor decision, though.
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fatboy
Saints Youth Team Player
Posts: 200
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Post by fatboy on Nov 26, 2014 15:58:31 GMT
Problem is that £15 pounds is not the average as a large portion of the city gate is made up of people paying the concession price or children,s prices, so we never have had 600 paying £15 to get into the ground. Maybe the club should play at a level that they can afford or find a new chairmen and owners who can afford to lose money on running a club.( guessing the owners are running at a lost at the moment but they could make a large fortune if they get permission to build a new ground and housing the St Albans area.). What happens next year. will the owners add another £3 to the entry fee
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Post by notsorecentconvert on Nov 26, 2014 17:22:27 GMT
True, fatboy.
Don't get me wrong. It's not that I don't sympathise with the conundrum. And I'm sure most fans appreciate the fact that the current owners have effectively subsidised (and continue to subsidise) the club's return to the Conference South.
The problem is, when the chairman comes out and expresses disappointment at the dwindling home support it draws attention back to the issue – and that is that a newly-promoted club is the most expensive to watch in the Conference South. Unfortunately, the economics of football at this level do not add up. Player costs outweigh income from supporters but let's not forget that a while back we were told about how much extra revenue had been attracted by the commercial department.
I wonder if other matchday takings per supporter are up or down on previous years?
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yellowalf
Saints Reserve Team Player
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Post by yellowalf on Nov 26, 2014 17:26:48 GMT
Herts Ad says "A big crowd is intrinsically linked with results at Clarence Park, according to Archer, who insisted the performances on the pitch are better when the Saints fans are in good voice and waving their flags." Mr Archer isn't wrong with his view that big crowds are intrinsically linked with results but he's got the second bit the wrong way round: the evidence is pointing more to Saints fans being in good voice when the performances on the pitch are better! 953 Saints fans (give or take a few visitors) came to Clarence Park to cheer on our boys against Concord Rangers but the home performance was flat, under-par and disappointing to pick just three descriptions from the match thread. That contradicts his statement and is closer to the truth given that less than half of that crowd returned to see the next home league game against Whitehawk. Personally, I think the weather plays a significant part. I agree with recentconvert's maths but a game on a miserable wet Monday night isn't an attractive proposition to me even at £12.
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Post by minty on Nov 27, 2014 3:12:33 GMT
I think it is a bit over optimistic to think we will get a crowd of nearly 1000 for Wealdstone on Saturday. It's the F.A. Trophy and people aren't interested until you get to at least the quarter finals and the casual supporter wouldn't have a clue what the F.A. Trophy is anyway. 450 would be more realistic.
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Post by davymac55 on Nov 27, 2014 13:32:08 GMT
Whatever anyone thinks, the entrance price is a major bone of contention with fans , home and away alike. The bar was dead last Saturday and takings must have been way down(although my drinking companion and I did our best) no real queues for food and no tv. at all in the bar. Not a very good advertisement for the club. I am contemplating travelling to my homeland this weekend to watch my team play in the Scottish Cup. £18 Admission. Even allowing for travel time and cost its very tempting. However, the crowds may not flood back at £12 admission but would we have lost so many.......discuss. Many 'regulars' from last year are missing and I am aware that the additional cost is a factor
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Post by harpendenstone on Nov 27, 2014 14:15:55 GMT
This is a no-brainer really, isn't it? I'm a Wealdstone fan but a keen advocate of non-League football, depressed that people are so in thrall of the Premier League that they reject the idea of watching anything else. The beauty of watching your local team is obvious - accessibility, the chance (for kids) to go along in a gang with your mates; decent food and drink at the ground; but above all it must be CHEAP. St Albans need aggressive marketing, leafletting with discount admission vouchers; consistent schools initiatives; half price entry for pro club season ticket holders. There was a great feelgood factor around the club following the play-off final win at Chesham that was damaged as soon as the price-hike was announced. That distressed me, even as a fan of one of your rivals, for its blinkered thinking. I have no idea of the directorial structure at Clarence Park, but I imagine there are meeting with supporters groups where these grievances could be aired? We all passionately want Conference football to be successful, the key to which is clever price structuring. I've been impressed with the overall standard of football this season but too few people are being lured into enjoying it.
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Post by PaperSaint on Dec 3, 2014 13:42:15 GMT
I have to agree with our Wealdstone fan - the club has to do more to get people through the gates. I've been taking my kids for years to youth football sessions (including St Albans City Youth) and yet I've never been to one of those local events and see any info/free tickets offered. It's a missed opportunity especially as St Albans City Youth is the biggest youth football set-up in the country! I also see very little in the schools - wouldn't it be nice to maybe see a Saints player attending a school fair? I will now have to get my Saints Trust application filled in and see if that helps me to make a (small) difference....
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Post by asaintreborn on Dec 4, 2014 0:39:31 GMT
I heard something interesting at Wealdstone last night. The van they had serving food last night, which provided an excellent quality of food btw, is used not only at match days but during the week goes to local towns, places of work etc (correct me if I'm wrong). Like Burger vans and creates extra revenue for the club. I don't know what the profit margins like in the industry, but that looks like a great way to provide extra revenue for the club and is really thinking outside the box. Surely someone with John McGowan's experience in that field could take advantage of that?
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Post by Saint on Dec 4, 2014 1:43:54 GMT
Is that van owned by Wealdstone then? I thought they hired it in like we do with our current food van. That's an interesting money making idea.
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Post by EFMTFTV on Dec 4, 2014 2:46:00 GMT
That brilliant food from last night we talk about, well we did the same at the start of our first season in the southern league Really good quality burgers etc etc for £4 but people moaned it was too expensive so we got a crap burger van back and pay £3 for a lump of crap in a stale bun
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Post by notsorecentconvert on Dec 4, 2014 7:36:32 GMT
From what I gather from my mate, who is a wealdstone fan, wealdstone have a stake in the Rollin' Kitchen.
The van does indeed go to events, markets, food fairs etc on other days. No idea how much money it generates for the club though.
Both times I've been to wealdstone this season I've been impressed with the food. It was a shame the traffic was bad because by the time I got there the curry and rice had run out.
I'm pretty sure that initially there were comments about the price from wealdstone fans because it is a bit more expensive.
Generally I give the food at Clarence Park a miss except in desperation, such as last Saturday when I'd been busy and missed breakfast and lunch. Unfortunately, half of it went in the bin.
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Post by harpendenstone on Dec 4, 2014 19:49:43 GMT
The Rollin Kitchen is staffed by two Michelin-trained chefs, one of whom is friends with a Wealdstone director, and they hatched the idea of the Stones buying the trailer and the 4x4 that pulls it (for a not inconsiderable sum) with the club and individuals splitting the profit. Without going into specifics, the club take the lion's share of profits on matchdays while Bryn the chef takes the lion's share for the rest of the week as it tours marketplaces and London hot spots. It has been a terrific success, not just financially but also in terms of PR for the club. Most fast food is pretty shocking but the RK is real quality.
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