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Post by Saint on Jan 11, 2015 13:54:52 GMT
The crowd of 803 was much higher than the club anticipated, so I don't think it was disappointing really.
Gray ans Golds are certainly working on bringing in players, but we have to remember that injuries are still having an impact... I cannot wait for Coms, Kyriacou, Welch ,Frendo etc to all be 100% fit and starting, as our team will look very different.
The management had always really set out for this season to be one of consolidation in the division, especially with some of the big spenders near the top, so don't let the £15 entrance fee fool you. That was a decision from the owners to set a price which suggests we'd be competing near the top, even when in reality there was no plan to be.
Gray has already said that there will be a number of trialists for Tuesday's game, so no doubt that some of them will be player's from lower decisions who have shined up to now (Much like Beckles had done). The size of the squad, Gray estimated, was around or just over 20 at the moment, so he has said that any more permanent deals will have to be done on a one in one out basis, simply because of the size it is. Hadley will give the management the chance to assess a number of players I hope.
The only downside from my perspective was a lack of cutting edge up front, but the manager was open about that in the post match interview, and just wishes they could turn home some of the chances they've been creating.
G+G are looking to build a younger and hungrier squad towards next season, and with players like Beckles arriving, I think we'll see that trend continue.
The Wood have been a mainstay in the Conference South for what, 5 or 6 season's now? They've gradually built up and improved their squad over the seasons... Hopefully in less time than that, we'll be competing up there, and I believe that is what the management genuinely think they can achieve.
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oldgeezer
Saints Youth Team Player
Posts: 248
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Post by oldgeezer on Jan 11, 2015 14:28:48 GMT
People waiting for a cup of tea having to come to the busy bar - and bar should not be selling tea coffee when catering available- doesn't happen at any other ground we visit. Needs to be looked at I buy my tea at the bar as I believe it goes to the club rather than the caterers. It lessens the queue at the catering stall. There was almost no queue at the bar 12 mins into half time. I cant see a problem. Leave well alone.
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Post by notsorecentconvert on Jan 11, 2015 15:10:47 GMT
Odd and inconsistent stuff there, Saint.
So the club anticipated a much lower crowd despite the following factors:
We were playing against our near-neighbours We were playing against the league leaders The decision to segregate the crowd (which suggests a decent number of away fans were expected, not merely the mischief makers) Mr Archer says the club the needs gates of 750 to break even
It doesn't make sense.
Going back to a comment made a week or so back, there's no coherence to either the actions of the messages that come out of the club.
They charge £15 for the visit of Cheshunt, then a fiver against Hadley two rounds later on, but there's no acknowledgement that they got the Cheshunt decision wrong, which would go a long way.
They say they need 750 crowds to break even and then you suggest that they were anticipating a much lower crowd than that for the visit of the league leaders.
Maybe all this sounds simplistic, but it just don't add up, guv.
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Post by Saint on Jan 11, 2015 15:34:28 GMT
Odd and inconsistent stuff there, Saint. So the club anticipated a much lower crowd despite the following factors: We were playing against our near-neighbours We were playing against the league leaders The decision to segregate the crowd (which suggests a decent number of away fans were expected, not merely the mischief makers) Mr Archer says the club the needs gates of 750 to break even It doesn't make sense. Going back to a comment made a week or so back, there's no coherence to either the actions of the messages that come out of the club. They charge £15 for the visit of Cheshunt, then a fiver against Hadley two rounds later on, but there's no acknowledgement that they got the Cheshunt decision wrong, which would go a long way. They say they need 750 crowds to break even and then you suggest that they were anticipating a much lower crowd than that for the visit of the league leaders. Maybe all this sounds simplistic, but it just don't add up, guv. I personally believe that in reality, they did not expect such a crowd because: 1) Recent results, which apart from Gosport, have not gone our way 2)Well publicised Injury crisis within the squad, you yourself mentioned prior to the Gosport game you were not sure who would be playing, and that possibly would put you off. 3)A number of home games recently, which when charging £15, is not great for a lot of fans 4) There were a number of question marks over whether the Wood support would actually materialise. (The segregation was requested by the Police, but there was no guarantee of the support they showed yesterday) They may need crowds of 750, but when Wood are the league leader's, and they're still getting gates of less than 300, you can see why it was a pleasant surprise to get over 800. Even the prediction thread saw a number of crowd predictions below the actual attendance. (The 750 comment came on the back of some more impressive form than recently) The Herts Pricing arrangement for Hadley is a very welcome stroke of common sense, and I'm just glad that those who made the Cheshunt decision have changed their mind. While it may not be a worded acknowledgement that the decision was wrong, the change has been made, and we can now probably move on from that issue. (I agree it was wrong, but making a problem out of it several months later still is not going to change anything, especially when the pricing for the next round has been changed accordingly) But, I'm just some guy who will run the Twitter a couple of times a season... What do I know?
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Post by notsorecentconvert on Jan 11, 2015 15:55:19 GMT
All very reasonable points Saint.
But what's happened to football supporters these days?! So passive and the language of the PR drone has crept into everything. "Let's draw a line under it and move on."
I think the club would have served itself better by acknowledging its mistake. They could have turned a PR negative into a positive by saying: "We got it wrong against Cheshunt so, to make amends, we've set the price for the Hadley tie at £5 and hope to see a good turn-out to watch us bid to reach the semi-finals."
Or say: "We may have a few trialists in the line-up on Tuesday. Come and see if you think any of them are up to the job."
I dunno, finding out basic information like the ticket price for a home cup match feels like hard work sometimes. I spend more time than I'd like to admit here and on the club's website and still it was hard to find out!
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Post by Saint on Jan 11, 2015 16:10:46 GMT
I would say that there is a slight reluctance within the club to acknowledge they were incorrect, and are probably hoping that the Hadley pricing does help. However, you could probably counter that by asking which other clubs would publicly come out and admit they were wrong over such an issue? Not too many probably.
I agree that it is difficult to get infromation out there, and I'm surprised that it is not yet on the club website. It;s sometimes the case that information will go on here before the official site... However, again, that probably occurs at a number of clubs.
The £5 entry is being advertised on twitter, which is find is the best place to get info from the club, and was mentioned at least twice yesterday, so hopefully people took note.
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Post by nonleaguefan1 on Jan 11, 2015 17:51:20 GMT
This was my first game at Saints and at £15 to watch Conference South football with a limited view, a twenty minute wait in the tea line, where there was just one guy in the van on his own. The game itself was pretty terrible, neither team looked good apart from Wood showed they had that little bit extra, something out of nothing. I was that disappointed that I felt I had to post. Sorry Saints, I just expected more especially with that price tag. I be going back to watch league football.
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Post by nonleaguefan1 on Jan 11, 2015 17:52:02 GMT
Better change my username.
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Post by citycentresaint on Jan 11, 2015 18:08:35 GMT
Is cheaper to watch Watford in January than to watch St Albans.
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Post by PaperSaint on Jan 11, 2015 18:20:47 GMT
I'm not sure it's fair to compare to a 50% off initiative but would like to see the club introduce similar initiatives (such as the stones postcode schemes). As someone who nearly always goes with a child, it's not too bad at £15 for the two of us and the family ticket is very good value. Sorry to hear nonleaguefan1 didn't enjoy the game - it was a fairly typical derby match (more of a middle of the pitch tussle than end to end action) but would still recommend you give the Saints another go. For me, it's about the Saints being my local team and part of my community and the fact that each week can be so different - last week, small crowd, freezing, foggy, depleted team yet we won and this week local derby against top of the table team, bigger than expected turn out, same team but expectations changing and we lose in what I thought was a well contested match - but probably more for the purists.
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oldgeezer
Saints Youth Team Player
Posts: 248
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Post by oldgeezer on Jan 11, 2015 18:43:39 GMT
Well, I've frozen at Watford and watched mediocre football that I really couldn't get enthusiastic about. And I've waited in a queue for a cup of tea at half time (and paid over the odds for it - although I cant remember how much exactly) And I've trudged through the streets afterwards to get to the station.
I've also watched the Saints struggle, get promoted, play mediocre football, and sometimes excellent football. On Saturday, we lost - but I enjoyed the experience and admired the effort and skill of the players.
Strangely, its no contest - I will continue to support my local team through good and bad, and hope for more good than bad.
I guess each to their own.
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Post by PaperSaint on Jan 11, 2015 18:52:06 GMT
Oldgeezer - I completely agree. Snacks, drinks much cheaper than league teams. I went to White Hart Lane for Spurs v Man Utd (having always followed the Spurs) and waited an hour to get in, paid over the odds for snacks, didn't bother having a rip off, corporate beer but although still enjoying the match, still had the desire at the back of my mind to be on my way to Sutton to see the Saints away that afternoon...
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Post by notsorecentconvert on Jan 11, 2015 19:37:15 GMT
Very interesting views above.
I guess it all depends what you're looking for, nonleaguefan1. I've watched plenty of league football that's been awful, turgid, dreary stuff and yesterday's game was not that. It was open, pretty evenly-matched and won by the team that could take chances over the team that didn't.
If what you enjoy is the technical precision of a Premier League game then perhaps the honest endeavour of non-league football is not for you. I know plenty of Premier League (and even Championship) fans who simply don't understand why I would want to 'waste my time' watching people who plainly aren't the best at what they do. Personally, I find Premier League football sterile, tactically cynical and overly calculating. It's football with 95% of the joy squeezed out of it.
I'm trying to think back to what attracted me to Clarence Park once I'd moved into the area. I think it was initially the convenience of being able to decide at 2.30 whether to go to a game or not. It was the ability to stand wherever I liked and move about. And it was the commitment of the players, and no little skill too. And, over time, it's been a pleasure to watch certain players improve. I suppose there's been an element of 'newness' to it all too. I'd been to a lot of non-league grounds over the years but to rediscover them and visit some new ones while actually supporting a team has been fun.
Comparing Watford's half-price offer with our full-price entry fee may well be like comparing apples and oranges but that doesn't make it irrelevant. We're all competing for the same floating voters.
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Post by PaperSaint on Jan 11, 2015 21:41:31 GMT
Sorry recentconvert - didn't mean for it to be taken as your comment was irrelevant. I think it would boost the crowds we get, if we started to do things like the Watford 50% January sale offer. I just mean't that the full price needs to be compared with the full price elsewhere. However, we do also need to debate why we were are lacking as a club in becoming a bit more innovative from time to time in offering incentives to get more people through the turnstiles.
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Post by Hatboy on Jan 11, 2015 22:24:22 GMT
I know we've still got injuries and are short of cover in some positions but as I said on my prediction for this game we need to start turning some of the defeats we've been suffering in to draws we've suffered the (joint) second most defeats in the league this season.
Lack of goals is becoming a big problem now Boringwood (the highest scorers)have scored 25 more than us and Farnborough (the lowest scorers) have scored 9 less than us and this is not taking into account how many we concede !
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Post by bob666 on Jan 12, 2015 2:55:56 GMT
A lot of interesting points raised in the discussion. In terms of pricing I think the Herts County Cup decision must be read alongside the relatively cheap half season ticket offer (of which I availed myself). I wonder if the club came to the conclusion that initial pricing policy was misjudged? Obviously it is their choice but I would have imaged that St Albans is relatively unimportant to the owners compared to their core business from which they derive there income so would it not be better to delegate these decisions to one of the full time paid members of staff as I assuming they have time to analyse the implications of different pricing decisions. From the outside it looks slightly chaotic.
In terms of crowd being larger than expected that may be the case but I entered the ground at about 2.55 and got a programme. So this would suggest that club correctly estimated demand for programmes- which must be directly related to crowd size.
I think we will be OK this season in terms of regulation but I do worry about the medium term. I not against bring in young players from lower leagues but if we are to survive at this level it has to balanced with retaining a core of proven performers. I think some of the managers comments really amount to trying to make a virtue out of a necessity. I have also found some of Nick Archers comments slightly troubling - in terms of crowds needed to break even etc.. As long we at CP the only realistic financial objective is aim to control losses not break even. If we are genuinely seeking to break even this seems like a unrealistic objective, better to target a realistic level of deficit.
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Post by nonleaguefan1 on Jan 12, 2015 13:26:14 GMT
recentconvert -
Thanks for jumping on your high horse and educating on me on what football I should enjoy. I've been watching football in the local area (lower than Conference South) but the game wasn't very pretty compared to other Conference South fixtures I've witnessed.
However for £15 with a limited view (segregation for a non league match, it was a derby but there was no segregation for the away tie earlier in the year), not great catering, a piece of scaffolding on the half-way line which obscured the first goal. No car parking. Seating that is dated back to the 19th century, the club really needs to look at itself off the pitch rather than focussing on it to get fans to experience a positive match day out.
I just think you can get better value for money (its the highest match ticket in the league) at other local clubs in this division and would rather venture away than be closer to home, which is a shame.
On a positive note, the No.6 looked impressive, decisive and great composure at the back.
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Post by Saint on Jan 12, 2015 13:44:33 GMT
recentconvert - Thanks for jumping on your high horse and educating on me on what football I should enjoy. I've been watching football in the local area (lower than Conference South) but the game wasn't very pretty compared to other Conference South fixtures I've witnessed. However for £15 with a limited view (segregation for a non league match, it was a derby but there was no segregation for the away tie earlier in the year), not great catering, a piece of scaffolding on the half-way line which obscured the first goal. No car parking. Seating that is dated back to the 19th century, the club really needs to look at itself off the pitch rather than focussing on it to get fans to experience a positive match day out. I just think you can get better value for money (its the highest match ticket in the league) at other local clubs in this division and would rather venture away than be closer to home, which is a shame. On a positive note, the No.6 looked impressive, decisive and great composure at the back. Hi nonleaguefan, just to counter some of the points your raise with my opinion: First, segregation - Requested by police and agreed by both clubs, the club would not want to have added costs if it didn't have to. Scaffolding- It's been there for over 10 years now and this is probably the first complaint I've heard about it... Where else is the club suppose to put somewhere for camera/TV? It was in use on Saturday. Also, obscuring the goal? You are aware you don't have to stand behind one of the poles when watching a game, right? No car parking- The City station is less than 5 minutes away, and has plenty of spaces! Also, if you arrive early enough, there is local parking to be had. Seating dated to the 19th century- I thought you were standing behind the TV gantry a minute ago! Well the stand is very old, and does have a preservation order on it... Although I sit down from well over an hour before kick off until 5pm, and seem to be okay with the seating, I must just have no feeling in my bottom half! The £15- You wont find any disagreement over this with our fans, there were plenty of complaints about the pricing, and if you look back to the summer, there was a thread of over 8 pages letting it be known how much our fans disagree with it this season. Conference South football- I've seen a number of games this season, and to be honest, this Conference South, technically wise, is the worst seen in quite a few years, and you won't get many disagreeing with that from any clubs. Why hasn't the football been so great generally in the division this season? Well, I don't think there's one explanation really. (However, that doesn't mean we haven't had exciting games this season! We've seen quite a few goals in our matches)
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Post by EFMTFTV on Jan 12, 2015 14:49:30 GMT
And a point about the seating stand, the rip off £15 entry is slightly counterbalanced by folk who sit because we don't charge more for the seats whereas some clubs that charge £12/13 would then add another £2 for a stand transfer
Apart from that I aggree with all Saints points above
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kroofs
Saints Trialist
Posts: 74
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Post by kroofs on Jan 12, 2015 16:09:09 GMT
What has happened to the flag waving crew ?
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yellowalf
Saints Reserve Team Player
Posts: 301
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Post by yellowalf on Jan 12, 2015 17:37:42 GMT
For me, it's about the Saints being my local team and part of my community and the fact that each week can be so different - last week, small crowd, freezing, foggy, depleted team yet we won and this week local derby against top of the table team, bigger than expected turn out, same team but expectations changing and we lose in what I thought was a well contested match - but probably more for the purists. Yes, I agree. You never know what you're going to get at Clarence Park! There have been games this season when I didn't know how we would ever score yet on Saturday I couldn't work out how it was we hadn't scored. While obviously I'd rather have the goals, I'm optimistic that if we keep making chances we will get the goals. I thought we were even with BWood from the 5th minute onwards in the first half and I reckoned we looked most likely to score in the second. That the result says differently is what football is all about. I'm sorry to see Gayle go, but happy to see Kaloczi return. Of course, if we can get Gayle back as well that would be brilliant. I understand the disappointment over recent results but we've had a load of injuries so once those clear up we should be back to showing the sort of form we were at the start of the season: 3 wins from the first 6 games, 5 wins from the first 10 games.
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yellowalf
Saints Reserve Team Player
Posts: 301
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Post by yellowalf on Jan 12, 2015 17:41:27 GMT
However for £15 with a limited view (segregation for a non league match, it was a derby but there was no segregation for the away tie earlier in the year), not great catering, a piece of scaffolding on the half-way line which obscured the first goal. No car parking. Seating that is dated back to the 19th century, the club really needs to look at itself off the pitch rather than focussing on it to get fans to experience a positive match day out. Glad you feel that way, NLF - so do we. So if you wouldn't mind writing to the local council explaining why you support the club's attempts to move to a new stadium on the outskirts of StA (with parking) we'd all be very grateful. Be sure to copy your letter to the York Road Residents Association...
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Post by Hatboy on Jan 12, 2015 18:01:46 GMT
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Post by notsorecentconvert on Jan 12, 2015 19:32:19 GMT
Nonleaguefan1, I wasn't lecturing you on what football you should or shouldn't enjoy, from a high horse or otherwise, but thanks in return for jumping down my throat.
I was merely suggesting that anyone attending Conference South level football presumably tailors their expectation levels accordingly. I didn't think Saturday's game was particularly thrilling stuff but neither was it the worst I've seen this season.
As others have said, you won't find too many people defending the £15 ticket price. And I certainly see the point that having paid the highest entry fee in the league expectations are raised.
But the complaint about the scaffolding is bizarre. Why stand behind the scaffolding when you could simply move away from it and find an unobstructed view.
Personally, I love the unique, quirky charm of Clarence Park. It's part of the reason I chose Saints as my non-league team and I'd be sad if the club moved to a purpose built Lego stadium.
Away trips in the league have become soulless, dreary affairs over the past decade or so, particularly in the top two divisions. There are too many identical out-of-town stadia. Stewards telling everyone to sit down. I challenge anyone to tell the difference between, say, Southampton and Middlesbrough, Leicester and Derby... I love the character of many of the non-league grounds I've visited in the past year or so. Give me a creaky wooden stand built in the 1920s any day!
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Post by COYS on Jan 12, 2015 19:56:39 GMT
Away trips in the league have become soulless, dreary affairs over the past decade or so, particularly in the top two divisions. There are too many identical out-of-town stadia. Stewards telling everyone to sit down. I challenge anyone to tell the difference between, say, Southampton and Middlesbrough, Leicester and Derby... I love the character of many of the non-league grounds I've visited in the past year or so. Give me a creaky wooden stand built in the 1920s any day! Quite right. Not only in terms of the stadium's construction, but its location as well. A lot of modern football grounds I've been to - Leicester and Derby can be held up as examples of this, too - are situated in soulless industrial areas, alongside either factories or PC Worlds. Clarence Park's location is great (even if York Road residents don't agree!) - just a few minutes' walk from town and its park setting is - infamous oak tree aside - brilliant. Ok so there's not much parking but I've never minded parking up a few streets away from the ground - after all, going to see the Saints wouldn't be the same without the bi-weekly walk over the railway bridge!
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Post by notsorecentconvert on Jan 12, 2015 20:08:11 GMT
Perhaps it's because of my age... I first went to football as a kid in the early 1980s. First away game would've been around 1984. I remember getting the train to places like Coventry, Aston Villa and Port Vale and walking to the ground from the station. Being a teenager in the 1990s, getting my first car and driving all over the country to watch my team with friends was great. Then the out-of-town stadia complete with a Frankie and Bennys started to be built and bit by bit the soul ebbed away. I remember going to Wycombe's Adams Park in about 1990 and being impressed but very shortly, as more clubs relocated, the novelty wore off.
I loved Ayresome Park, the Baseball Ground and Filbert Street for the higgly-piggedly imperfect dumps they were! The new grounds just felt the same but with different colour seats.
I know that in order to build a club capable of challenging in the Conference St Albans would need to build a new ground and in order to make a new ground work it would have to be cost-affective. That might mean a flat-pack stadium with yellow and blue seats and an adjacent retail park or housing.
I did wonder whether Hemel would manage to move. There had been talk of moving to land near the big Tescos at Jarman Park but that didn't come to anything. If they did manage to do that you could see them getting into the Conference and perhaps even following Stevenage.
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Post by EFMTFTV on Jan 13, 2015 13:03:10 GMT
What has happened to the flag waving crew ? Too windy for the flags on Sat I believe
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