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Post by ahad43 on Dec 10, 2018 8:38:12 GMT
I was just wondering on the pros and cons of having a 4G pitch installed. It's all hypothetical, mind. I'm guessing the Local York Road NIMBYs would object to all sorts, but the only real issue involving them would be not having any more floodlit evenings than there already are, so Saturday afternoons (in Winter), and two midweek nights (one match, one training)? So Saints matches and training. Then reserves / Academy / Youth matches alternating with the first team? I'm not sure what our next team is after the first team (I know we don't have a reserve team at the moment), but do they play Saturday / Tuesday? If they played Saturday they could play home while the First team are away, and could potentially train on a Monday or Tuesday if the first team have an away league game..? Alternatively, I know Arsenal reserves and ladies and stuff play at Boreham Wood - where do Spurs or Watford reserves / ladies play? Would we be able to get a Premiership / Championship team's reserves / ladies in? Even better if they played on a Sunday afternoon, no floodlights needed. Again I know that's a big ask as they'll already have their own set ups and stuff... Could also see if Verulam wanted to play their first team games there (for example, just picking the nearest school). What's the Oaklands set up like? Do they have a nice first team pitch / ground? The Uni of Herts? I know the uni is in Hatfield but getting their first team playing Wednesday afternoons, and opening the bar (if people were available to run it on a Wednesday afternoon) could be good. I know we do it already but local schools finals, charity games, maybe with a 4G pitch we might be in a position to host Herts Junior / Senior Cups / Vases etc, unless they are all played at Letchworth? The main con would be the cost of installation and maintenance, presumably. I know you can't have a 4G pitch in League Two and above but aren't they still debating that and looking to have the rules changed? I did a quick Google search and found www.3g4us.co.uk/ who are pushing for a rule change, don't know the latest though. Again, all hypothetical, but what are peoples' thoughts?
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Post by lagerman on Dec 10, 2018 10:03:21 GMT
Well, l'm all for them. They look pretty impressive to me, having seen the ones at Eastbourne, Oxford, Sutton and Maidstone, and obviously the main thing about them is that they are, generally, weather proof, hardly any postponements. If l was a player, l'd love to play on one of them.
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Post by minty on Dec 10, 2018 10:22:09 GMT
The one at Oxford is a nightmare. It's got more rubber on it than a Durex factory.
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Post by ahad43 on Dec 10, 2018 10:32:08 GMT
I've played on a couple of them, Oxford's is a bad example of far too many pellets and stuff I think, the ones I've played on were absolutely fine even in the rain
Aside from the pellets though, no postponements would be good although I think Clarence Park is pretty good in terms of drainage etc, we don't have many postponed do we
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Post by lagerman on Dec 10, 2018 10:45:19 GMT
No, ours is good ahad, although it might just be that there is a good "water table" beneath the surface in the area as well, l don't know about that. But the pitch itself does handle the rain well. Going back to 4G pitches, l just feel that they are the future for football and l do believe, eventually, they will get voted in by the Football League. I saw Oxford City's pitch when we played there and it was fairly new then, l just think it had too much of a covering of rubber shale on it, but perhaps as it was new then, that was extra protection or something.
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Post by ahad43 on Dec 10, 2018 10:51:48 GMT
I wonder how much you'd save in maintenance costs not having to paint it or mow it X times a season
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albanian
Saints Reserve Team Player
Posts: 372
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Post by albanian on Dec 10, 2018 11:55:25 GMT
Could see the club doing this as part of a new ground, but zero chance of this happening at Clarence Park. Sutton spent £500k getting theirs installed, so it's a sizeable investment. We wouldn't be able to get close to exploiting the full money generating potential of a 4G pitch, so it's doubtful it would make financial sense. On top of that the owners would never spend that amount of money on Clarence Park when they're trying to get the council to agree to a new ground.
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Post by ahad43 on Dec 10, 2018 12:09:18 GMT
Out of interest, why don't you think we'd get close to exploiting the full money generating potential? Because we couldn't have the floodlights on every night? It'd be a sizeable investment to start with, but low on maintenance presumably.
Another quick Google suggests £60 per square metre, don't know if that's for new or conversion
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albanian
Saints Reserve Team Player
Posts: 372
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Post by albanian on Dec 10, 2018 13:52:30 GMT
Yes the floodlights restrictions would be a big issue and I'd be surprised if the council would let us rent it out unrestricted in daylight hours. I also think we'd need to upgrade our other facilities (e.g. changing rooms, catering etc) to maximize the amount we could charge. This is all guess work and I could well be wrong.
However I'm pretty certain that the current owners would never do it. It's a long term investment and they have their sights set on moving out of CP as soon as possible. It would also weaken our position with the council in convincing them of our need for a new ground.
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boojiboy
Saints Reserve Team Player
Posts: 322
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Post by boojiboy on Dec 10, 2018 14:03:45 GMT
3G/4G pitches are the work of the devil. Absolutely dreadful. Why anyone would consider wanting one at their club is beyond me.
The football on them is terrible, the ball travels too slowly across the surface, sticks under player's feet and bounces in weird directions. It looks dreadful, stinks and is rumoured to be unhealthy. Also very environmentally unfriendly.
The sooner they are banned from football at our level the better.
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Post by ahad43 on Dec 10, 2018 15:08:51 GMT
I guess, and again it's all hypothetical, but we currently rent the ground from the council for a peppercorn rent don't we? So if we were to get 4G we could possibly get some funding from the council (very unlikely) or from FSF grants or something that would help with the initial cost? Then maybe renting the pitch out, some of that money would go to the council and the rest (the majority) back to us? Albanian, why do you think there would be restrictions during daylight hours, out of interest? Just wondering, all good healthy interesting debate. The owners obviously want to move, but I'm pretending the owners have left and a new owner has come in open to both options i.e. moving or staying. Not sure that really applies to all of them, does it boojiboy? Wonder if they are as environmentally unfriendly as 100 years of petrol fumes from lawnmowers, for example
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albanian
Saints Reserve Team Player
Posts: 372
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Post by albanian on Dec 10, 2018 15:43:38 GMT
Well I'd expect the local residents to kick up a fuss. They're rich with significant legal and political influence, so can't imagine we'd get planning permission without making concessions. There's also a bit of a grey area about us making money out of non match day activities. We're limited in how many events we can put on in the club house and I think strictly we're not supposed to hire it out for private events. We would need the council to guarantee that we'd be allowed to run it as a 7 days a week money making facility and that this couldn't be curtailed further down the line. There's probably an argument that this would go against the covenants, which I'm sure the York Road residents would be keen to point out.
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Post by ahad43 on Dec 10, 2018 16:19:12 GMT
Ah yes, those infamous covenants! And the rich local solicitor residents who presumably would have to work pro bono if they wanted to fight the club to install a 4G pitch. Would planning permission even be required if we were to change the surface of the pitch? Do we know if the hockey club had to get planning permission when they installed their new surface? Because there's all sorts of different planning permissions, i.e. normal, permitted development, prior approval etc (all residential so maybe don't apply but still). Do we know what the event limits are? At various stages we have had quizzes, race nights, fans' forums, and music nights from memory. Any idea why we can't hire it out for private events? I wasn't thinking private events to be honest, just more football on the pitch and more people having a post-match drink (especially if the uni used it!) All interesting stuff
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albanian
Saints Reserve Team Player
Posts: 372
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Post by albanian on Dec 10, 2018 16:40:32 GMT
We'd definitely need to seek some kind of permission from the council, as the ground isn't ours to do as we please with. Even if we didn't need permission to lay a 4G pitch, we'd need them to provide us with certainty that we were free to rent it out on a regular basis.
With regards to the local residents, I'm not anticipating some kind of multi-million pound legal wrangle, but these are people with good connections. A couple of strongly worded legal letters will go a long way and I don't doubt they'll be willing to take things further.
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Post by ahad43 on Dec 10, 2018 17:08:41 GMT
Sure but there's only so far they can go if all we are asking is to change the surface of the pitch. No increase to floodlit hours or anything. We seemed to cope OK with moving our midweek first team games from Tuesday to Monday..?
Agree that dialogue would be needed with the council if we wanted to change their pitch, but you'd hope a lot of weight would be on the community benefits, benefits for the people of St. Albans etc. So maybe not planning permission but an agreement, which you'd hope they'd be in favour of if it meant a small percentage of the rent or whatever to the Uni or Spurs reserves or Verulam etc etc
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Post by middxsaint on Dec 11, 2018 20:39:10 GMT
The slope on our pitch should not stop a 4G pitch being installed. The one Hendon had pre-season had a similar slope. Might have missed the boat though with more & more schools & colleges getting them, so demand reduced. Firms such as Goals not making the money they did with 5-a-side due to easier access to 4G pitch hire. Majority of clubs in U18 Premier League, EFL Youth Alliance etc do not let general public in to watch games, so no need for a "stadium" ground. They can use their own training grounds.
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Post by ahad43 on Dec 12, 2018 9:25:57 GMT
Good point on demand being reduced, I guess any vague selling point would have to be the additional facilities i.e. a clubhouse, boardroom, changing rooms, and the stand / terraces. Plus the 'prestige' of playing at Clarence Park, obviously! If more and more are getting them, is the cost going down? Under 18s etc might not be an option (unless we had our own Youth / Academy etc) but reserves and ladies would still be a possibility? If Sopwell House was used for one or two national teams during Euro 2020 they could also use Clarence Park for training sessions - although they'd probably use Arsenal's London Colney training ground I guess
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Post by ahad43 on Dec 14, 2018 15:04:08 GMT
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Post by ahad43 on Dec 14, 2018 15:06:04 GMT
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Post by ahad43 on Dec 27, 2018 14:54:09 GMT
Eastbourne's pitch seemed OK
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