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Post by Boomer on May 5, 2010 11:28:38 GMT
Headline in this week's Review - Saints Face Winding Up Order Threat Over Unpaid Tax Bill. edition.pagesuite-professional.co.uk/Launch.aspx?refresh=rQ1507To2q1D&PBID=684d3920-eb54-44d3-8f56-56cc53a1d03dI am unable to paste this but if you click on last and then previous you will go to the relevant page 71. I would think it will go on line later today. Apparently the club has an £10k unpaid tax bill and the club's current debts are at £35k. The statement by Gibson about the Supporters Trust wanting 10% of the football club and the prospect of the new potential buyers wanting 100% of the club and thus shutting the door on the Supporters Trust made me smile. Why would the Trust want 10% of the football club while Gibson has over 50%, overall control and can do exactly as he wants? What would be the point? It is an autocracy. I have never heard from any of the Trust committee that they want 10% of the football club at this moment in time. If this is just one of the inaccuracies that Gibson projects, you have to question how many other of his statements in the article fall short of the truth. My guess is probably most of them.
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Post by Daedalus on May 5, 2010 11:37:17 GMT
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Post by Daedalus on May 5, 2010 12:25:00 GMT
Am I the only one who feels tired, frustrated and angry with the rubbish that Gibson keeps coming out with? He doesn't strike me as a particularly intelligent individual. He says in this article that he has not been involved in discussions with the Inland Revenue, 'thinks' that there may be some kind of problem, and that he 'would expect a satisfactory conclusion in the near future'. Doesn't exactly fill you with confidence does it? And this is the man who is chairman of our football club. The man who has also told us a number of times over the last few years that he wants to give up his position. And all of a sudden he appears to be 'looking to the protectionism of the football club' and desperate to cling on but why? Here we have a football club in a desperate financial situation, with Gibson openly looking for investment, and he gives potential investors a 15 minute meeting without providing them with any figures or documentation whatsoever. To be honest, you'd have to be an absolute idiot to do business on those terms, and I'm not at all surprised the investors thought that this was an unworkable situation and wanted 100%.
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Post by Daedalus on May 5, 2010 12:28:04 GMT
Also worrying is this passage: No youth team? And they got it right about the lack of organisation or structure.
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bovysaint
Saints Youth Team Player
Posts: 248
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Post by bovysaint on May 5, 2010 12:51:51 GMT
Gibson is a complete idiot - he couldn't run a bath let alone a football club! Over the next couple of weeks we will probably lose our manager and most of our players. What will be next?
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Post by Boomer on May 5, 2010 12:55:08 GMT
Am I the only one who feels tired, frustrated and angry with the rubbish that Gibson keeps coming out with? No you're not, Daedalus. Everyone feels the same way. Gibson is not protecting our football club, he is wrecking it.
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Post by Saint on May 5, 2010 14:58:24 GMT
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Post by veryveryoldlag on May 5, 2010 20:00:29 GMT
So the Trust have £14K in the bank, as confirmed at the special meeting in March.
The tax bill is quoted as £10K, is this not the time for the Trust to come forward and show that they really care about the Club?
Or is the money best left in the bank whilst the Club goes to the wall?
No Club = No Trust, no winners, only losers, fait accompli.
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Post by Boomer on May 5, 2010 22:55:33 GMT
So The tax bill is quoted as £10K, is this not the time for the Trust to come forward and show that they really care about the Club? Conversely, some might argue that the fact they have not come forward is for the very reason that they do really care about the club.
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Post by veryveryoldlag on May 6, 2010 7:24:13 GMT
Boomer, you are going to have to explain how perhaps letting the Club be wound-up is REALLY caring.
You could be talking about no Senior football in St Albans for some considerable time, and then having to somehow restart a new Club on Park pitches, working back up the pyramid.
No logic in that, when from what we read, all that it will take is £10K now.
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Post by nobbythesheep on May 6, 2010 8:52:34 GMT
No Club = No Trust, no winners, only losers, fait accompli. I don't see why there would be no Trust if there was no club? If you look at other clubs that have gone to the wall it is their Trusts that get the ball rolling in forming a new club.
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Post by Daedalus on May 6, 2010 9:43:13 GMT
I really hope it doesn't come to that nobbythesheep. In my opinion, it would be absolute madness to pass over £10k of the fans' money to the current regime. Under Gibson's terms, we can presume that the Trust would have no chance of actually making a difference to the club and of contributing to the organisation/structure/business plan for the future to ensure that the Saints can avoid facing such problems again in the long-term. Handing over the money might help the club in the short-term but it would likely do absolutely nothing to help the club in the long-term. The club needs to live within its means and work towards ensuring its long-term future, and there needs to be some major and concerted effort to attract a new fanbase (and the old fanbase back) to Clarence Park through a number of initiatives in the local community, for instance. I don't see any of this currently happening at the club. It is not up to the fans to bail out Mr Gibson and come to his rescue. The guy appears almost totally incompetent. If he is not alienating the entire fanbase, he is claiming that there is no point in having advertising hoardings at the club, that there is no point in promoting matches and so on and so forth. He is also alienating potential investors by giving them 15 minute meetings and refusing to talk to them about financial matters at the club. He simply does not have a clue, or perhaps he just doesn't care, but either way where would we be if we just handed over funds to this man?
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Post by Dr Saint on May 6, 2010 16:23:43 GMT
Backing your point nobbyts, I often read through other trust sites to see what ticks elsewhere, and one I admire is the ' Blue and Gold Supporters Trust '. Nothing related, only colours, this is the trust of the defunct Kings Lynn, now re-formed as Kings Lynn Town.
They also play at a council owned stadium and after several hundred thousand pounds being spent on it the club were demoted for not meeting Conference North standards. This I originally thought was just turnstiles but I have since learnt it to be changing room size and floodlight lux also. All this after having the ground passed by the Conference a few seasons earlier. Kings Lynn FC went under owing taxes. That is now in the past.
Kings Lynn Town are now raring to go and starting afresh at level 5. The enthusiasm felt from their trust, and the close feeling it seems to have with the club's well organised board makes you want to weep when you think of the 60+ yr feelings and love you have for the Saints and how it is being treated by its incompetent directors ( is there an ulterior motive? ! )
We may have to face up to some unpalatable facts re our future but that future must not include the likes of Gibson & al. Deadalus summed it up. The future is to be backed by the true fans and with the guidance of our Trust.
DS
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Post by veryveryoldlag on May 6, 2010 17:26:21 GMT
Just so we are clear, the concensus is that we want the football club as it exists now to be wound-up and to restart at a much lower level.
The level at which we would have to travel to places with poor facilities and officials, with no food and drink available, to stand on the edge of a muddy field, watching players who can't pass the ball quickly or more than ten yards.
Sounds good.
And we will all be happy and enthusiastic.
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Post by Hatboy on May 6, 2010 18:00:18 GMT
As long as Gibson is gone yes
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Post by Boomer on May 6, 2010 18:08:40 GMT
Just so we are clear, the concensus is that we want the football club as it exists now to be wound-up and to restart at a much lower level. The level at which we would have to travel to places with poor facilities and officials, with no food and drink available, to stand on the edge of a muddy field, watching players who can't pass the ball quickly or more than ten yards. Sounds good. And we will all be happy and enthusiastic. I'd say the only winding up being done here is by you, you naughty boy, vvol. It's all starting to get a bit tiresome now, though.
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Post by nobbythesheep on May 6, 2010 20:34:18 GMT
I agree Boomer. It all sounds very familiar!!
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Post by joemeek67 on May 6, 2010 23:47:22 GMT
as usal some trappy people going about who should what , but of course acepting no accountability for doing so AFF and trappy childwickbury come to mind , what do they want , never stated just usual criticism , sorry if dots in wrong place did not go to st albans boys school!
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Post by EFMTFTV on May 8, 2010 14:43:07 GMT
Now I've known AFF a long time and he's somebody with the interests of the club at heart ditto Tavs
Now I’ve kept out of any arguments regarding the TRUST as I don’t really have an opinion either way, for me it’s all gone a bit childish, people refusing to talk to each other, questions not being answered when requested etc etc
As for the small matter of their funds, I think voting for the distribution of funds like was done a couple of months ago was right and the people spoke, I think the transfer of monies from the supporters club was a bit underhand and should have had more consultation but that’s all done
My point is this, this is actually quite serious what is happening with this tax bill, we are talking about 100+ years of history down the drain, if this was happening in the middle of the season and we needed £10K to keep afloat then what would have happened? well I would like to think the TRUST would be organising fundraising to keep the club afloat, we’d have buckets round the ground and stuff would be going on – technically, as these would (hopefully) be organised by the TRUST then wouldn’t the money belong to them but then be given to the club?
My view is, therefore, that if this £10K really is the difference between the club surviving and not then the TRUST need to step in, it would probably cost more in the long run to start afresh 5 divisions below (and the fact people would rather this that give Gibson money is quite shocking) and I’m not pro-gibson as anyone who knows me will testify (I was starting Gibson Out chants years ago and was met with embarrassed looks and sometimes threats) but I am pro-st Albans city and when we reach our 200th birthday Gibson will just be another blot and chapter on our history but if are really stubborn enough not to save the club then so be it, not every new club that starts from scratch reaches their old dizzy heights – just ask Enfield (Town)
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Post by Hatboy on May 9, 2010 8:38:29 GMT
The Trust after said meeting agreed to make payments direct rather than giving money to Gibson and will probably do so again but the problem here is how many debts can the trust keep paying off ? Gibson can just keep racking up debts while he is in charge and the Trust will only be able to pay so much it's not a bottomless pit !
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Post by northamptonsaint on May 9, 2010 8:53:25 GMT
I agree with EFMTFTV, up to a point.
If the club had suffered from an unforeseen and unavoidable incident which had left it unable to trade or threatened with insolvency, you would expect The Trust to step in to help to keep it afloat, whether by writing a cheque or rattling a bucket.
The club is in its current position because of poor financial management over a number of years, by a regime which doesn't look likely to change.
And the c £10K owed to the taxman is only part of the problem; it has other debts: at least another £30K according to the St Albans Review.
Is it right for The Trust to sustain the current regime? And will a further cash injection just be delaying the inevitable?
It isn't really an issue of how much money that The Trust has in its bank account, but whether it is wise to spend it. Just because the club's board of directors has been financially irresponsible, it doesn't mean that The Trust should follow suit.
In the absence of any hard & fast details from the club about its financial position and future plans (prerequisites for any investor and certainly for HMRC), The Trust has agreed to fund infrastructure items or those from which fans will benefit too.
If a winding-up order is being mooted, it will not just be down to the club's immediate inability to pay the c £10K, but because it hasn't persuaded HMRC that it can pay the money back at all over a reasonable period.
In other words, the directors' plans for the future are not realistic.
Perhaps it is time for them to get some help by opening the books to an independent, business recovery expert who can show the club what it must do to manage its debts and live within its means.
The club has got nothing to fear if it has got nothing to hide and if the expert feels that the future is bright, it might persuade The Trust to pay the c £10K and the expert's fee, while providing a blueprint which the two organisations can work together to implement.
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Post by Daedalus on May 9, 2010 11:06:12 GMT
NorthamptonSaint totally sums it up in my opinion.
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Post by assegai on May 9, 2010 19:43:53 GMT
I am amazed by postings such as this from veryveryoldlag:
and this from EFMTFTV
EFMTFTV. I must say that I find it quite shocking that some people advocate continuing to support this man. He has absolutely no regard for you, me or any other supporter. (At the recent awards ceremony he turned his back on everyone present, and spent most of the time sending texts on his mobile. Maybe not too important in itself but an example of the contempt he has for the players, the supporters and the club)
Now let's consider a couple of things.
Karen Gibson is siphoning off £21k (I have also been told £22K) per annum from the Oaklands sponsorship money in return for the little work she does. This is money that is intended for and should be going to the club. This is considerably more, I am told, than the club secretary earns. Imagine the amount of work he does in comparison to her.
There are unexplained monies that have, a-hem, "gone missing" from the 100 club. This was raised in a post some weeks ago and no explanation has been forthcoming from the club. From Bill Nicholson who fronts it. Or Nick Archer. Or Gibson (there's a surprise).
If I (and many others) know of these two instances, you may bet your bottom dollar that there are other instances that we are unaware of.
But amazingly some of you urge the Trust to continue satisfying the voracious appetite that Gibson and family has for money that he "mis-uses". And encourage this thick-skinned individual to remain at the helm by giving him yet more money. This former "Businessman of the Year" (!) has an appalling record and should have no place in St Albans City Football Club.
For once, the Trust is correct. Only hand over money to third parties in payment for services that have been provided to the club. Do not give a penny to Gibson et al.
If it means starving him out and in turn, inevitably harming the club, then so be it. You cannot continue to feed this cancer for fear of what may happen to the club if you stop. The longer term consequences of his remaining are, I suggest, far worse.
He recently rejected an approach to take over the club. I wonder why that could be??
He is like the cuckoo's chick. In a place where he has no right and where he is not wanted.
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Post by saintsfan on May 9, 2010 20:39:34 GMT
What does karen gibson do?
webbo's website says she is "Youth Development Contact". 22 grand for being a contact!!!!!!!
it's a joke!!!!!!!!
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Post by EFMTFTV on May 10, 2010 9:47:08 GMT
I and this from EFMTFTV EFMTFTV. I must say that I find it quite shocking that some people advocate continuing to support this man. He has absolutely no regard for you, me or any other supporter. (At the recent awards ceremony he turned his back on everyone present, and spent most of the time sending texts on his mobile. Maybe not too important in itself but an example of the contempt he has for the players, the supporters and the club) You clearly don't know me, almost since day 1 of Gibson being here I've had him sussed, I've been trying to get him out for years and it's fallen on deaf ears, Gibson out chants have been started by me a long time before anyone else bothered, I've been isolated because of my views on him, he has tried to bad mouth me and my friends at any available opportunity – he accused us of writing inflammatory messages on Aldershots message board and went to the local press, later found out to be a bunch of school kids – no apology, he refused to allow any publicity for the fundraising we did for the young girl in Canvey and banned it being mentioned in the programme, he’s written upteen rants in his programme notes including accusations of intimidating some cheerleaders at Carshalton (he reached this conclusion from his position in the stand – he didn’t chat to the cheerleaders who we were having a laugh with) and after some players assaulted supporters because of I criticised a player on a message board he spun it round to say that I was in the wrong and let the players stay, he also banned me from the ground but luckily it only lasted 3 games as AFF and co mediated for me for an incident at Billericay which “he wasn’t prepared to discuss”, which is typical of his attitude to everyone Now this isn’t about Gibson, it’s about a tax bill that could spell the end of the club and I certainly would never suggest we just gave Gibson £10K, my point about raising money is a valid one, plenty of clubs have hated their owner but with the prospect of closure imminent have raised money by any means possible, sitting on money whilst being wound up and starting in South Midlands League is not an option as far as I’m concerned, when I buy my golden goal tickets and raffle tickets I give the money to the club and I don’t care who keeps it in what bank account but I need it to assist the club and stopping the club getting wound up would be money well spent IMO
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Post by saintsfan on May 10, 2010 9:55:05 GMT
I am amazed at the lack of reaction to the things said by assegai........ gibbo is running the club into the ground and asking for money from fans and what about the unpaid tax bill? ? The club is going to the wall but meanwhile Mrs gibbo is raking in 22k of the clubs money while she is paring her fingernails!!!!!! No way should the trust give him more money!!!!!! The guy is a joke!!!!!! It's a ******* disgrace!!!!!!!!!!!
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Post by Boomer on May 10, 2010 10:25:50 GMT
I am amazed by postings such as this from veryveryoldlag: and this from EFMTFTV EFMTFTV. I must say that I find it quite shocking that some people advocate continuing to support this man. He has absolutely no regard for you, me or any other supporter. (At the recent awards ceremony he turned his back on everyone present, and spent most of the time sending texts on his mobile. Maybe not too important in itself but an example of the contempt he has for the players, the supporters and the club) Now let's consider a couple of things. Karen Gibson is siphoning off £21k (I have also been told £22K) per annum from the Oaklands sponsorship money in return for the little work she does. This is money that is intended for and should be going to the club. This is considerably more, I am told, than the club secretary earns. Imagine the amount of work he does in comparison to her. There are unexplained monies that have, a-hem, "gone missing" from the 100 club. This was raised in a post some weeks ago and no explanation has been forthcoming from the club. From Bill Nicholson who fronts it. Or Nick Archer. Or Gibson (there's a surprise). If I (and many others) know of these two instances, you may bet your bottom dollar that there are other instances that we are unaware of. But amazingly some of you urge the Trust to continue satisfying the voracious appetite that Gibson and family has for money that he "mis-uses". And encourage this thick-skinned individual to remain at the helm by giving him yet more money. This former "Businessman of the Year" (!) has an appalling record and should have no place in St Albans City Football Club. For once, the Trust is correct. Only hand over money to third parties in payment for services that have been provided to the club. Do not give a penny to Gibson et al. If it means starving him out and in turn, inevitably harming the club, then so be it. You cannot continue to feed this cancer for fear of what may happen to the club if you stop. The longer term consequences of his remaining are, I suggest, far worse. He recently rejected an approach to take over the club. I wonder why that could be?? He is like the cuckoo's chick. In a place where he has no right and where he is not wanted. assegai, if what you say is true about Karen Gibson (and you seem very specific about the amount involved) and the 21/22K allegedly being siphoned off, this is both morally corrupt and indefensible. The money should indeed be going to the football club. From what you say, there is very odious smell to all of this and it needs bringing out into the open, sooner rather than later. No doubt the person in charge at Oaklands Academy will be able to corroborate the situation and if he/she cannot or will not do so, perhaps other more stringent and telling steps need to be taken to exact the truth.
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Post by assegai on May 10, 2010 10:46:59 GMT
EFMTFTV
With respect, I said:
If this means the Trust handing over £10k directly to HMC then so be it. My worry is that Gibson will use this source of funds to cry wolf whenever money is needed and once more the Trust will be forking out to pay the Water Bill (money is currently owed to them), Council Tax (money is owed for that) etc.
What annoys me is that the Gibson's are hoovering money out of the club and "we" are not only standing by watching this happen, but dipping into our pockets so that it may continue.
What is the long term plan to stop this happening? He has rejected a genuine offer to take over the club and why wouldn't he when he has £22grand coming in each year.
I know you speak from the heart. So do I. We are on the same side. But it is a bit like us giving an addict more drugs every time he asks for them rather than finding a solution to the problem.
He ignores posts on message boards. He ignores letters written to local papers. He ignores the anti-Gibson mood that exists throughout the city. I wouldn't expect him to do anything else. So what is the solution? Do nothing (as we are), allow the situation to deteriorate in the hope that he will go away and then watch the club do a Bognor Regis and slide down the leagues.
I totally understand where you are coming from, but to bail Gibson out is just what he is looking for. If we pay that bill it means that there is more for him to trouser. "Another £10 grand" he'll announce to Karen, rubbing his hands.
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Post by Boomer on May 10, 2010 10:50:42 GMT
You are not wrong.
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Post by EFMTFTV on May 10, 2010 11:31:55 GMT
I think we agree assegai, I certainly would never give Gibson the money but the HMC would be a different matter
I'm very intrested in this Karen Gibson story, where did we here this from? Somebody must be in a position to check, I'll see if the 200% lads can find anything out
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