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Post by notsorecentconvert on Aug 13, 2019 15:23:01 GMT
I have no issue with the owners subsidising the club in the form of loans. Anyone who invests in a business does so on the basis they hope for a return, either in the form of interest on loans or with a dividend on profits. (Or to sell at a profit).
But the issue is the club have set the matchday admission prices at between £3 to £5 above what the market has deemed their product to be worth and so the owners are effectively asking the supporters to contribute to losses they agreed to incur (presumably as part of a strategic long-term policy to recoup their 'investment' one way or other). They want to keep the club at this level so it has a better chance of securing a new stadium. That requires a certain amount of cost in the form of player wages. That leads to a shortfall between income and expenditure. At the end of the day, that has been their decision.
That's why the pricing is not really on. For their money the supporters get to watch the match. What the owners are saying is: "Please pay the market price for football at this level PLUS a contribution to our losses (which we hope to recoup one way or other in future anyway)."
Anyway, a mate and I have a spare evening tonight but my suggestion we go to St Albans fell rather flat when I told him the price. (It's not that he can't afford it, it's because £18 is a rip-off). So we're going to Hemel v Dulwich instead, which will be fine, but not really my preferred option in an ideal world).
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Post by stafans on Aug 13, 2019 18:08:23 GMT
But also, it won't increase revenue due to people not attending and the """knock on of missing a generation of fans will be felt for years""" All the money they put in is in loans which they'll get back when the new ground comes, the reason nobody else is putting money in, and there has been offers, if because their share of the ground would be reduced As a younger fan imo it's happening at most non league clubs that play at older grounds and areas. Ie compare us to Dartford who have a fairly decent youth following but a very new pristine ground, obviously maybe too pristine for some fans. Younger fans in St.albans can easily go to Watford, and lots do as Clarence Park is probably seen as a bad ground. I know it's been said but without the new ground(whenever that is) I cant see it improving.
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Post by stafans on Aug 13, 2019 18:10:38 GMT
But also, it won't increase revenue due to people not attending and the """knock on of missing a generation of fans will be felt for years""" All the money they put in is in loans which they'll get back when the new ground comes, the reason nobody else is putting money in, and there has been offers, if because their share of the ground would be reduced As a younger fan imo it's happening at most non league clubs that play at older grounds and areas. Ie compare us to Dartford who have a fairly decent youth following but a very new pristine ground, obviously maybe too pristine for some fans. Younger fans in St.albans can easily go to Watford, and lots do as Clarence Park is probably seen as a bad ground. I know it's been said but without the new ground(whenever that is) I cant see it improving. But I agree with your point and still feel LL could do more to get younger fans involved .
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Post by bob666 on Aug 14, 2019 5:50:11 GMT
One issue I have is the owners seem to present the club as a firm when it suits them and a community organisation when it does not. So when they appeal for volunteers they clearly present the club as a community organisation (not many 'normal' limited firms appeal to the public for unpaid labour ). Equally when they discuss the need for everyone to stick together/endure price rises they are appealing to a emotional bond and presenting the club as something other than a frim. HSBC are unlikely to ask you to accept a lower rate of interest than their competitors out of a sense of solidarity. On the other hand, when they say why shouldn't we make a return on our investment, why should we accept major losses they are employing the same market/firm (neo-classical welfare maximiser) logic that they are asking fans to step outside when giving up time for the club, running fundraising schemes or paying above the going rate for the product. At the very least they should be consistent.
In terms of attracting young fans for me we target the wrong age groups. So we have a lot of schemes targeted at primary schools but these seem pointless as the kids are simply too young to enjoy spending 90 mins watching a match. If anything I think coming to the Park at that age may alienate them, as they seem bored to tears. We should instead give out free tickets at secondary schools. Also drawing from my personal experience I supported the club between about 13-18 (I had a season ticket between 15-18) but lost touch with SAFC when I when away to university. I ended up spending seven years at university before moving back to St Albans but never started attending again until about 5/6 years ago in my mid 30s, I got completely out of the habit. My point is that we need to try and keep in touch with younger supporters who move away for education etc so that there are still in some way engaged (even if not attending regularly) this may led to more returning as they come back to the Southeast for work etc after finishing education. If the club had made one game a season during university vacations free for under 25 a year I pretty sure I have when and became a regular again upon my permeant return to St Albans.
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Post by notsorecentconvert on Aug 14, 2019 7:10:04 GMT
Very good points, Bob.
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Post by desaint on Aug 16, 2019 17:24:42 GMT
As a relatively young fan myself (22), the thing that attracted me to start following St Albans a few years ago was the ability to go to games at short notice, cheaply. With many young supporters priced out of going to say, Arsenal, cheap(ish) ticket prices are one of the main attractions of following a Non-League club. Now that element has gone, why would a young person from the area opt to go to Clarence Park rather than a nearby Football League team?
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Post by notsorecentconvert on Aug 16, 2019 18:16:52 GMT
Absolutely right. If you’re 22 and you’ve got a group of mates the last thing you need is to faff about planning in advance and buying tickets online.
When I was 22, my “other” team was in what is now the Championship at a time when you could pay on the gate and there was unreserved seating. Many times we decided to go at short notice, especially to away games. Wake up on a Saturday morning, assess the severity of Friday night’s hangover and then drive to Stoke or Tranmere. At home games we’d all turn up and congregate together. That has all gone at League level now. Well, certainly in the top two divisions. At my club now they have the opposite problem - people who have bought season tickets to ensure a seat for the games they want to see but who fail to turn up for Burnley and Brighton. So they are asking people to email if they intend to miss a match.
At St Albans’ level they simply must make it as easy as possible for casual fans, people with families or kids who want to attend and teenagers and people in their early 20s to attend.
Let’s face it, if someone has just graduated, and has a job with a small salary £18 is a heck of an outlay. Those potential fans are simply lost. We all know that groups of young fans are the heartbeat of a club.
Unfortunately the club has two owners who think like wealthy 50 somethings. That attitude has crept in to the thinking of others too, people for whom shelling out £252 for a season ticket is not a big deal.
How about thinking about the challenges for other people and making the club open and attractive to them instead of the farcical suggestion - as seen on Twitter today - that people buy a family ticket, invite a friend and pretend their “kids” can’t make it.
That is the argument of someone who knows deep down the thing is a joke.
I mean, get real.
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Post by saintsdad on Aug 16, 2019 18:31:48 GMT
£280 if you missed the early bird deadline
Every single comment I've seen in support of the price rise has come from one of about four people who have season tickets and go to games with their sons. All the comments against the price rise are from a huge range of fans of different situations, including those who have had season tickets for years, as well as those who can't make 21 games a season.
Two adults buying a family ticket is still more expensive than the average adult ticket price in the division by the way
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Post by EFMTFTV on Aug 16, 2019 21:19:52 GMT
Couple of brilliant points there that I brought up at the fans forum
Most people get hooked on the club in their teens, they go with their mates, probably have their first drinks there and the bond remains, most people I know came in that way, but they still need to be able to afford it. I did a look at the inflation calculator and worked out what I would have paid when I first came if adjusting for inflation from the current £18, I simply would not have come, it works about £9 and I was earning £150 a week, the actual price was around £4
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Post by saintsdad on Aug 17, 2019 10:00:04 GMT
Couple of brilliant points there that I brought up at the fans forum Most people get hooked on the club in their teens, they go with their mates, probably have their first drinks there and the bond remains, most people I know came in that way, but they still need to be able to afford it. I did a look at the inflation calculator and worked out what I would have paid when I first came if adjusting for inflation from the current £18, I simply would not have come, it works about £9 and I was earning £150 a week, the actual price was around £4 You'll be pleased to hear the club have extended the concession bracket to include under 21s now then..? Although they'll still be paying £12 on the gate, and for some reason the club haven't bothered to publicise any of the changes they've made so far.
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Post by saint68 on Aug 17, 2019 10:51:55 GMT
Here’s a good laugh .... I just noticed that if,as a 60 year old, I buy a ticket for today I pay the Concession price. However, when I renewed my season ticket I had to pay full whack as Concessions start at 65. So I just rang the club and spoke to someone who confirmed it’s true. When I asked why the difference he said he’d “look into it.” I then had a good rant telling him that the current pricing policy is going to cost the club money, not increase it. He sounded rather surprised to hear this so I pointed out that on a mild August evening against a reasonably well supported club like Braintree we normally would have expected 600-ish not 396 and that the revenue lost from 200 or so non-attendesss far outweighs the extra £1.50-£3.00 from those of us who did turn up. I’ve supported this club during some pretty terrible times (1982-83 anyone?) but I’ve rarely felt as disillusioned as this before.
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Post by saint68 on Aug 17, 2019 10:52:08 GMT
Here’s a good laugh .... I just noticed that if,as a 60 year old, I buy a ticket for today I pay the Concession price. However, when I renewed my season ticket I had to pay full whack as Concessions start at 65. So I just rang the club and spoke to someone who confirmed it’s true. When I asked why the difference he said he’d “look into it.” I then had a good rant telling him that the current pricing policy is going to cost the club money, not increase it. He sounded rather surprised to hear this so I pointed out that on a mild August evening against a reasonably well supported club like Braintree we normally would have expected 600-ish not 396 and that the revenue lost from 200 or so non-attendesss far outweighs the extra £1.50-£3.00 from those of us who did turn up. I’ve supported this club during some pretty terrible times (1982-83 anyone?) but I’ve rarely felt as disillusioned as this before.
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Post by notsorecentconvert on Aug 17, 2019 10:55:42 GMT
I'm totally confused. It now says on Twitter that Premier League and EFL season ticket holders can get in for £11 (I assume that's the advance purchase price?) That's cheaper than a St Albans City season ticket holder can get in (and that's assuming the season ticket holder doesn't miss a league game!) This whole thing has become incredibly muddled. It seems like the club is so determined to demonstrate amazing value there are half a dozen different prices but they are stubbornly sticking with the £18 on-the-gate price which is actually causing reputational damage now given the discontent and division it's created. It seems the only people who have to pay full whack are the very people the club needs to persuade to come along more frequently – the casual, the busy, those who decide to attend on impulse. In among the mess there are some reasonable pricing decisions – extending concessions to under-21s is a good idea, for example, but the whole policy is so confused.
Perhaps time for a complete rethink.
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Post by saint68 on Aug 17, 2019 11:29:17 GMT
If only they would have a rethink. As I said to the guy on the phone, are the club trying to alienate nearly every supporter? Because that,s pretty much what they’re doing.
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Post by citycentresaint on Aug 17, 2019 18:13:13 GMT
Not long before attendance drops below 300.
Boycott is going strong.
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Post by notsorecentconvert on Aug 17, 2019 18:15:45 GMT
The thing is, it’s not just the boycott that should trouble the club. It’s the people the club won’t hear from on social media and who don’t contribute to this forum who will just have decided it’s too expensive and are simply not attending.
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Post by davymac55 on Aug 17, 2019 18:25:35 GMT
And blocking social media access to fans who disagree with price hike etc...to make it worse blocked allegedly by a muppet so called"fan"..true colours and all that...and why...again... are PremierLeague rtc fans being given cheaper tickets? Why should SACFC fans subsidise them..just as happened on our farcical contribution to NON LEAGUE DAY..sadly still too many "apologists" as well.
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Post by bob666 on Aug 18, 2019 2:27:50 GMT
Our ticketing structure remains me a bit of the post-privatisation railways a plethora of ticketing schemes and prices which leads to what appears to be arbitrary price differences and leaves the majority of consumers confused- simplicity is a good thing. I bought my season ticket early before the boycott discussion really got going. The more I think about it the more I think it was the wrong decision and I should actively support the boycott.
Following on from the previous comments on the discount for PL/EPL season ticket holders the discrepancy between St Albans season ticket holders and EFL season ticket holders for cup games seems unreasonable in that the on the gate price for the former is 7 pounds higher than the latter. Of course we should welcome everyone who adopts St Albans as a second team (I not against a modest discount) but this feels like we are discriminating against people who commit to the club for a season. That club treating regular fans as less valuable. For me members, St Albans season ticket holders and PL/EFL season tickets should all get the same discount for cup matches. Members and PL/EPL should get the same price for league games
I think evidence that the decision has been counterproductive in the narrowest of financial terms is mounting. The weather was perfect for watching football today and a attendance of 442 reflects the price. One thing I think the seated area is as busy as normal but other areas of the ground are emptier. My guess is a higher proportion of seaters are OAPs and families which makes me think most of the fall is centred on full paying adults.
I always find to odd how people who ran other businesses very successfully often make a complete mess of running a football club.
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Post by norfamptonsaint on Aug 18, 2019 7:08:18 GMT
The price-increase this season (which doesn’t appear to have been handled at all well at any stage) is a result of the club’s constant struggle to make ends meet. In the absence of progress towards a sustainable solution for living within its means, is it time for City to go back to its roots (Herts County League?) and build again, under fan/community ownership?
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Post by lagerman on Aug 18, 2019 10:55:53 GMT
I've noticed the emptiness and apathy around the place now and it's really sad to see it like it is, with no real atmosphere anymore at the mo, although that's clearly not helped by the results on the field. Gates are down and the Clubhouse isn't what it used to be. But in no way at all am l critizing the boycott, it's what the supporters who are boycotting the Club, feel they have to do and they have every right to express their disilussionment how they want to. The owners really do have to look at all this and learn from this and correct their decisions as l just feel we are a slowly dying Club at the mo, and l feel that this is filtering through to the players. The owners must surely be seeing this and surely must know what is happening in front of them. I'm a Season ticket holder and a die hard Saints fan and someone who just couldn't boycott the Club as the Blue and Yellow runs through my veins and the Club are my passion, but that doesn't mean to say l agree with what's gone on, because l don't. I just hope things change both on and off the pitch and we get back to what we were, a happier Club
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Post by saintsdad on Aug 18, 2019 11:09:04 GMT
I'm a Season ticket holder and a die hard Saints fan and someone who just couldn't boycott the Club as the Blue and Yellow runs through my veins and the Club are my passion Would you boycott if they put the season ticket price up to £500, lagerman?
I think you'll find most people boycotting were season ticket holders. All are die hard Saints fans, and all have blue and yellow running through their veins.
Of course, there is a difference between those who are boycotting and those who don't fancy going to games when they are able to because of the ridiculous ticket prices.
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Post by lagerman on Aug 18, 2019 12:16:27 GMT
I'm a Season ticket holder and a die hard Saints fan and someone who just couldn't boycott the Club as the Blue and Yellow runs through my veins and the Club are my passion Would you boycott if they put the season ticket price up to £500, lagerman?
I think you'll find most people boycotting were season ticket holders. All are die hard Saints fans, and all have blue and yellow running through their veins.
Of course, there is a difference between those who are boycotting and those who don't fancy going to games when they are able to because of the ridiculous ticket prices.
I know all those that are boycotting the Club are like me, true die hard Saints fans, probably arguably more die hard than me which is why they are doing what they are doing. And if the price of my Season Ticket went up so much that l couldn't afford it, then l most probably wouldn't buy one.
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albanian
Saints Reserve Team Player
Posts: 372
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Post by albanian on Aug 18, 2019 12:22:16 GMT
It feels like the club have got themselves into a bit of a pickle over all this. They're desperately offering discounted prices left, right and centre trying to get a few more people through the gate. But sheer stubbornness is stopping them from backing down on adult prices. Only a couple of weeks until the schools go back and no doubt we'll see inflated crowds of school children in an effort to mask the serious issue of dwindling crowds. The problem being that ten children paying nothing to get in is an awful lot less than one boycotter paying £15.
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Post by citycentresaint on Aug 18, 2019 22:50:37 GMT
The boycott is to help the honest working man being priced out by the club.
Is there anywhere in the world where Division 6 football is as expensive?
If so, I would like to know.
The club hierarchy have buried their head in the sand. The club is going in the wrong direction, ripping off fans will not work.
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Post by gazza2402 on Aug 19, 2019 12:20:52 GMT
We could all buy season tickets for other clubs a lot you can sell back to club at face value so season ticket could be in effect free then get in to Clarence Park for £11 which if I am not mistaken is cheaper then the early bird offer which worked out at £12 a game just a thought !!!!
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Post by ahad43 on Aug 27, 2019 21:12:15 GMT
'Midfielder Michael Phillips has signed a new contract with the Stones, after just 5 games. Sounds like there was interest from National League clubs so he's been locked down. And the club announced 2 new investors this afternoon, one of which is the founder and chairman of a global sports agency. Good times on and off the pitch at the moment.'
A comment from the Conference South forum recently. 2 new investors? I wish we'd thought of that
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Post by saints17mad on Aug 29, 2019 15:10:00 GMT
I rarely post on here any more but I do still follow the forum for updates etc.
I don't live in St Albans due to house prices but live in Watford. I was still attending games until last season when I became a father.
With the price rise there is no way I can justify coming to watch the saints, especially with a young family now. That is probably the biggest disappointment as I watch the saints with my father and I'm the 4th generation of my family to have followed the club. I was looking forward to making the 5th generation of our family a supporter of the club but that looks highly unlikely given the current situation!
I've waited this long to post in the hope that the pricing might be re-evaluated but that hasn't happened yet so felt it was necessary to post.
The thing that annoys me the most is the club were moving in the right direction in reaching out to the community. All of this just seems like a massive slap in the face of that and God knows how this is supposed to improve the social aspects of the new stadium argument. Any Councillor with any degree of sense will surely see past that argument and how in reality that's not at the heart of the club.
I will be writing to the club directly to express my views as I think that's only fair but I certainly won't be attending this season (OK Man Utd at home in the third round might sway me!).
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Post by EFMTFTV on Aug 30, 2019 19:39:01 GMT
There is no point writing to the club mate, many people have done so and haven't received any replies
The owners treat the fans with contempt
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Post by notsorecentconvert on Sept 6, 2019 11:55:01 GMT
Was looking at the average attendances for this division since Saints got promoted...
2014-15 - 569 (8th highest) 2015-16 - 652 (9th highest) 2016-17 - 710 (6th highest) 2017-18 - 765 (5th highest) 2018-19 - 841 (9th highest) 2019-20 - 529 (18th highest)
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Post by saintsdad on Sept 6, 2019 12:06:36 GMT
Was looking at the average attendances for this division since Saints got promoted... 2014-15 - 569 (8th highest) 2015-16 - 652 (9th highest) 2016-17 - 710 (6th highest) 2017-18 - 765 (5th highest) 2018-19 - 841 (9th highest) 2019-20 - 529 (18th highest) It's unbelievable that the owners have budgeted for (or underwritten costs based on) the same attendance as last year considering last year's attendances were boosted by Woking and Torquay who are obviously no longer in this league. It was all going so nicely and smoothly...
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