Saints City Trust: An idea!

[AFF]

I see that the thread "Forum meeting, August 16th" has been locked by the moderators on here which has brought to a temporary end any debate among contributors regarding the amount of supporters money that the Trust is holding - possibly in the region of £15,000 -; the Trust's intentions for that that money; and of equal importance, whether the supporters from the terraces have any representation on the board of the football club.
I find the locking of that thread preventing discussion to be very disappointing but what do I know about anything?
Anyway. Moving on.
Here's the idea.
I was chatting to the new Executive with the Clubhouse portfolio chap - Gareth Davies - and he has obtained an estimate for the complete refurbishment of the kitchen behind the bar in the clubhouse at a cost of £8,000. Gareth is an experienced chef and that work would save the football club over £100 per home game as it wouldn't have to 'buy in' refreshments for visiting officials, sponsors and the players at a cost of £150 per game. In addition, the provision of a kitchen would give the commercial team further opportunities to raise income in the clubhouse on weekdays as well as matchdays etc.
Gareth tells me that the board of the football club is, of course, aware of the 'plan' but at the moment, funds are fully committed to the playing side. The board will also be disappointed at the attendances for these first two home games, no doubt.
Now that strikes me, at first glance, as a very worthwhile exercise and, to my eye, comes under the heading of good use of money raised by the Trust over the years from supporters contributions. If it has £15,000 in the bank, a donation of £8,000 for that specific purpose would still leave a very substantial amount of money for "a rainy day" if that is what they have in mind.
If this idea is adopted, I'll waive my usual fee and intellectual property rights etc.
Doin' it for The City.

[EFMTFTV]

I agree AFF, if the Trust is serious about spending the money on sustainable projects rather than giving the money to the club with no strings then this is ideal, after all the kitchen will be making money and saving money for many years, maybe after the current regime have gone

[Saint]

AFF, why don't you go up to a senior member of the Trust and propose this idea? I'm sure they always want suggestions of how they can help out the club.

'I find the locking of that thread preventing discussion to be very disappointing but what do I know about anything?' We explained why the thread was locked, and while you feel this was disappointing, we had no real other choice, as the forum rules were being clearly ignored. If you have any issues, I would suggest PMing one of us (Me, D or COYS)

[AFF]

Thanks for that Saint.
The locking of the thread was your call although I felt that the person who had breached the forum rules had been sufficiently dealt with by a prompt response from another contibutor politely pointing out the factual errors in his or her post.
I'll certainly let you know if I have any issues. Thanks!

[AFF]

Hi EFMTFTV.
Where does the expression ".. spending money on sustainable projects.." come from, out of interest. Is that in the Trust's constitution or is it simply something you have been told?
Certainly, it seems to me that a new kitchen in the clubhouse is a 'sustainable project' for the reasons stated.

[Hatboy]

I would like to know why no one wants to comment on why the club took over the clubshop or why someone that used to work the turnstyles is no longer there i have heard rumours but no one seems to want to open talk about things, what has happened to the good will of the trust and club working together and where is the transparency.

[northamptonsaint]

I think that you are being mischievous about The Trust’s assets, AFF.

Firstly, you are touting a figure of £15K, which is at least a couple of years old. I am sure that if you asked a Trust officer nicely, they would tell you the current figure (maybe it is more?); alternatively, you could wait until the publication of the Trust’s accounts at the AGM in November and re-start your campaign at that point.

Secondly, you are inventing a project on which to spend The Trust’s funds. I hope that if the club wants The Trust’s help to fund something, they will ask and be heard and that The Trust will canvass its members about any significant requests, such as spending 50% of its assets, before committing to it.

Are there any, other projects in the offing, because it would be good to give Trust members a choice while you are at it and for the members to understand what The Trust gets in return?

If there are other projects like this, it might be better to fund them jointly or if the club wants to do it but doesn’t have the money, The Trust could advance it to them as a loan.

As someone who was involved in the working party that did the groundwork on The Trust and as a businessman who no doubt thinks about the same thing for your own business, I would be interested in what you think would be an appropriate level of reserves for The Trust to hold.

I am no longer a Trust member and therefore don’t receive any of its missives and agree with you that it has gone a bit quiet on its plans for working with the club, now that matchday fundraising appears to be back under the club’s wing.

And if I could take the opportunity to invent a project too, rather than providing the odd spends here and there (training equipment, mower or a new kitchen), I would like to see the Club and The Trust agreeing on a really significant piece of sustainability-based fundraising, e.g. a new stadium or something that everyone can get behind.

Having said that, there are signs that the club is marginalising supporters as far as fundraising is concerned (sponsorship and matchday fundraising) in order to maximise its revenues. Like Hatboy says, what's going on there?

Join The Trust, stand for office and get things sorted, AFF. I would vote for you!

[AFF]

Well Northamptonsaint, you have taken the time to direct several points at me and that merits a reply in itself although I find your references to 'mischief' and 'invention' to be offensive so I will leave those on the floor.
Your reference to the Trust loaning supporters money to the club, or requiring some kind of return upon that money as though it is a bank or some form of an investment company crystalises the differences between our respective approaches, NS.
Every single penny that the original Supporters Club and latterly the Trust has in its bank account was raised in the name of St Albans City Football Club, within the confines of Clarence Park and I am outraged at the suggestion that it might now withold that money without a "return". If, that's "if", that is the Trust's Officers approach, then I am pleased that it must now raise money in its own name outside of the football ground. I cannot believe that those fans who purchased raffle tickets, merchandise etc. would be comfortable knowing that the proceeds were to be held by the Officers in that fashion. I have and I'm not.
My own view is that the Supporters Club/Trust should be a representative body, open and transparent in its aims and direction. It should represent all (make that all) the fans of the football club in regular dealings with the football club, and certainly should have a seat on the board. It should co-ordinate the efforts of individual fans in supporting the football club and all monies raised by the Trust in the name of the football club should be made available for the benefit of the football club.
Individual fans need to have faith in the supporters organisation. There will be errors - the donation of £5,000 of the £10,000 spent by Gibson on those two donkeys from Borehamwood, the writing off of £5,000 of stock (in the shop) at cost by the newly formed Trust, for example - but these people are volunteers and should be judged as such.
Individual fans need to have faith in the owners of the football club.
I don't want to see some award for The Best Toilets in Non League Football come to Clarence Park, neither do I want to see Saints City Trust top some League table of Non League football clubs by reference to the amount in its bank account (by a significant margin if the Trust is, indeed, holding £15,000 of supporters' money). Although the ground must be fit for purpose, I want to see the club achieve promotion from this dang League. And the financial contributions made by supporters might assist that objective.
The average attendance at Clarence Park last season was around 10% of the capacity of the ground, and the gate for the first two League game this season is some 80 down on that figure. Until there is any level of pressure upon the ground's capacity, the idea of trying to raise £10 million or whateever for a new ground (unless you have Spencer Playing Field at Sandridge in mind - far more appropriate for our attendances) or £250,000 or whatever on a new stand is, frankly, to me, laughable. Let's get out of this dang league first.
You refer to my business as if the Trust is a business. I don't regard it as a business for a moment.
You ask what amount I would see in the Trust's bank account presumably as some form of 'float'. An interesting question. I entirely agree that it should have some money available to cover the situation if a particular project requires initial funds to set up. Hmmnn. How much? 20% of its annual income, say? In the Trust's current state, a couple of thousand pounds? That seems like more than enough to me.
And without question, if, that's 'if' it is holding £15,000 of supporters money, that is grossly excessive.
And please don't start me off on the communicative skills of the Trust.
Hatboy makes a couple of interesting points, too. I have no idea of "trouble at t'turnstile" and equally, I don't know why the club has re-taken control of the shop and fund-raising within Clarence Park. If, and that's "if", the Trust have refused to make a very large chunk of money that it raises in the name of the football club available to the football club, then I am not at all surprised that the board have taken over control of fund raising efforts. It needs the money and the Trust certainly does not.

[EFMTFTV]

Aug 28, 2012 13:42:46 GMT AFF said:

Hi EFMTFTV.
Where does the expression ".. spending money on sustainable projects.." come from, out of interest. Is that in the Trust's constitution or is it simply something you have been told?
Certainly, it seems to me that a new kitchen in the clubhouse is a 'sustainable project' for the reasons stated.

I'm pretty sure I heard it at the last fans forum, maybe from Ian Ridely or maybe Laure Graham who said a bit about the trust although she is no longer on the baord

Aug 28, 2012 18:08:01 GMT Hatboy said:

I would like to know why no one wants to comment on why the club took over the clubshop or why someone that used to work the turnstyles is no longer there i have heard rumours but no one seems to want to open talk about things, what has happened to the good will of the trust and club working together and where is the transparency.

I'm not 100% sure why TBH, I think I heard something about the fact the club wanted some of the money from sales as the trust operated the club shop rent free and kept the profits
I dunno about the turnstyles

I did ask a trust member at Banbury but was too drunk to remember the answer

[AFF]

Just to be clear, I don't try to classify the various people in the crowd at Clarence Park. Whether that hack who has clocked up approaching 2000 games home and away back-to-back, that bearded chap who used to be Chairman of the Supporters Club, the current holder of the Wagstaffe-Simmonds Clubman Of The Year trophy, even the moderators on here, or the person who comes to just one game per season, they are all Saintsfans and equal in my eye.
That said, I recognise that some people give or do more, of course. Whether selling raffle tickets, buying them, following this message board or contributing to it. These people don't simply walk into the ground at 2.55 on a Saturday and leave at 4.55. For whatever reason, and the reasons will be many and varied, they take more of an interest. But be clear, to my mind that shouldn't make anyone more important than anyone else.
However, if an issue of any significance is to be raised for discussion, there seems little point in trying to engage with someone who attends one game each season. Rather, to have any chance of debate, it should be discussed with people who appear to care. An audience of 'interested' Saintsfans is required.
But as far as this message board is concerned, 51 people make a post on the thread, "MotM vs Chelsea", and good for them. Interestingly, however, whenever any thread starts concerning The Trust, a code of Omerta seems to descend on contributors. Simple questions by regular contributors are left unanswered by other regular contributors who most definitely do know the answers. Very few views are expressed, for or against. And I wonder 'why?'. Why the code of silence? What's the big secret?
I don't know the answers to those questions and I can't guess but, when contemplating these issues that are beyond the vote for Man of the Match in the last game I reach this conclusion.
The Trust has a number of significant problems. The football club has a number of issues. But as far as the supporters are concerned, they collectively have the form of Trust that they deserve and, both separately and by extension, the form of football club that they deserve.

[AFF]

The audience of 'interested' fans is shrinking.
We have to get out of this dang League.

[AFF]

I have taken advice from a couple of you on here and made further enquiries regarding the Trust's retention of supporters money, a figure which might be as much as £15,000.
I gather that the Trust is holding that money for two purposes.
Firstly, to be "ready" in the event that the club gets into financial difficulties.
Hmmnn. Well, when Jabba the Hut Harding purchased the club from Bernard Tominey in 1998, he paid £1. Inflation had no effect as Gibson paid Harding £1 for his shareholding in 2003, and I guess that Messrs Levy and McGowan paid the same amount to Gibson 2 years ago. So a pound would be sufficient in the highly unlikely event that similar circumstances arise under the current owners.
Of course, I appreciate that it doesn't stop at the £1. I have no idea of the weekly budget/running costs but I guess that £15,000 might keep the club running for 3 weeks or so And it doesn't stop at the money. People are required to help and I wonder whether the Trust and the members on here are remaining silent to save their energies to ready when the call comes?
When I stood down from the working party that was dealing with the establishment of the Trust following the fans meeting, four sub-committees had been formed each with 8 or 10 volunteers agreeing upon the details of projects to be undertaken. That's 35 + people. Where are they now?
And then there's the minor detail of expertise in running a football club. Communicative skills, for example. Hmmnn.
And the second reason for withholding supporters money from the club is to have funds available in the event that the current owners wish to sell shares in the company that is the football club. A share? Eh? £15,000? I suppose that a share certificate hanging on the wall might be more attractive than a print of, say, Constable's "The Haywain" in some people's eyes but not mine.
So the Trust wait to buy a share with supporters' money in the unlikely event that the owners want to sell one. A shareholding is no guarantee of a seat on the board, of course, but then, the Trust had that seat last season anyway. Hmmn.
And here's a minor detail. What might the owners do with the £15,000. Put it in their pocket and carry on? After all, it was their 50p each that purchased the shares from Gibson.
And those are supposed to be "sustainable purposes"?
Laugh? I nearly cried.
Don't you people who are members of the Trust get it?
In Supporters Club terms, the very significant sum of £9,000 together with stock in the shop valued at £6,000 was transferred to the newly formed Trust. That can't be un-done. Since then, the Trust's bank balance has swelled to a figure which might be as high as £15,000. You know my view. That is a highly creditable sum to have raised in the name of St Albans City FC, but a ridiculous amount for the Trust to be sitting on at the start of a season when we are desperate to get out of this dang league.
And it gets worse.
I can fully understand the football club's position. Rather than permit fund-raising activities in the ground in the name of the football club with funds raised being withheld from the club, it has taken the rather obvious step of taking over those activities itself.
Well that was a brilliant outcome. The Trust now has no opportunities to raise funds within the ground. It is to the credit of Ian Rogers and his colleagues that they have continued to help with fund raising etc for the club on matchdays. Fair play to them.
That money will always be an issue between the football club and the Trust and, for the good of the club - make that St Albans City FC rather than Messrs Levy and McGowan - the sooner the Trust's Officers and members find a way of spending it on something tangible within Clarence Park - rather than continue to hold it for some crazy pipe-dream, the better things will be. Look at the attendances this season, darnit.
Oh, by the way. And you members of the Trust support this? Do you really believe that a majority of the members of the Trust support these aims? I now understand fully why you people on here have embraced a code of silence over the Trust. The hysterical laughter would have been deafening.

[EFMTFTV]

Maybe the club should re-start the supporters club and give people the option of where to send their money, doesn't the trust membership renewal start on Oct 1st? If people vote with their wallets and the membership is down then the people have spoken

[AFF]

An interesting thought, EFMTFTV.
The current position is quite clear to the extent that if you buy a raffle ticket, golden goal, scratch card, cup sweepstake thingy, merchandise in the shop or enter that monthly snowball thing this season, the whole of the proceeds go to the club rather than into the Trust's bank account.
From what I can see, the Trust's only income will be the annual subscription of £10 or whatever it is from each member plus whatever interest rate it receives upon its bank deposits. And that is subject to whatever fundraising initiatives they pursue outside of Clarence Park, of course.
As I said elsewhere, the Chairman and Messrs Levy and McGowan seem like approachable chaps to me and I'm sure that, at an appropriate moment, any fan could approach them to discuss anything of interest or concern. However, beyond that, I feel that is a good thing for a supporters' representative to have the formal recognition of a seat on the board of the football club.
I have no idea when the Trust's "year" begins.
It's really sad that it has come to this.

[COYS]

Hi AFF.

As an avid fan of all things City, I presume you do subscribe the emails and newsletters of the Trust and have received something from them this evening. It may or may not answer the questions you hold over the running of the Trust and its significance within the context of the running of this football club. I hope it does, but if not I guess you'll be attending the AGM anyway, as you do like to have a grasp of everything you pass comment on, of course.

Thanks,

COYS.

PS: It's 'Owsy' by the way.

[AFF]

Many thanks for that COYS.
No, I will not be attending the AGM of the Trust. You may not have been following the exchanges on here so let me assist. I am not, and never have been, a member of the Trust and, in previous years, it has been made clear to me on threads that the AGM is closed to non-members.
That is up to the Officers, I acknowledge (although it is contrary to the guidelines of 'Supporters Direct'), but as a concerned fan, (I dunno about "avid", COYS but hey, whatever), I have asked questions on here regarding matters discussed following earlier AGMs - I noted the writing off of £5,000 of the value of stock (at cost) in the Trust's shop and I asked whether any initiatives were discussed at the AGM to improve sales, for example, to name but one, and it may surprise you to hear that nobody was prepared to answer, COYS. It didn't surprise me at the time for then, as now, there was more interest in the vote for MotM in the last match than the workings of the 'representative' body of the supporters of the football club, and I guessed that matters discussed are a "need to know" issue.. Disappointing, though.
And no, I did not receive an e-mail from the Trust last night, presumably for the same reason. If you did, perhaps you will confirm whether any discussions took place during the Summer with the football club concerning 'sustainable projects', or possible share issues in the company that is the club, or the amount of supporters' money that is sitting in the Trust's bank account, or the securing of income by the club in direct fundraising within Clarence Park for the forthcoming season.
Thanks to you for your interest and assistance, COYS

P.S. Thanks for clarification of the spelling of the Managers nic, by the way. Interesting how he takes "How" as a derivation of Howell, drops the 'h', and then before adding the customary footballers' 'y', he inserts 's'. (I have occasionally thought that the number of International caps awarded to Batty was limited due to the difficulty of adding a 'y' to the end of his name.)
Had it been me, I would have taken 'Owl' as the derivation and then added the 'sy' thing.
Good luck to Owsy on Saturday.

[midweeksaint]

COYS

Are you implying that communications were sent to all trust members last night? If so, then I also have not received anything. I have been a member since the trust was founded. In the past twelve months I can recall only one letter sent to me from the trust. Think I'll save myself £10 this year.

Cheers

MWS

[Deleted]

I received mine

cheers

(lifetime supporters club/trust member)

[AFF]

That's helpful, Gaz.
What does it say?

(Lifetime supporters club member)

[Deleted]

Yes you are in this instance right, it was helpful.

(still a Lifetime supporters club/trust member)

[AFF]

Another "need to know" basis, huh?
I shoulda figured. 'Omerta', the code of silence once again.
Thanks gaz.

[Deleted]

AFF,
'MWS' said he hadn't received his, I have no way of knowing whether he is a member or not, so
I replied I had.

thanks.

[COYS]

Hello again AFF, your response was greatly appreciated, as was your 'assistance' with my following of this thread.
The newsletter has been on this site for a number of days already, so I presume you've already read it, but if not: www.saintschat.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=trust&action=display&thread=1348 (on a need to know basis, naturally).
I'm sure no-one would object to you signing up to the newsletters yourself, but I guess that would take out the thrill of the chase?
Most notably, attached to the email was information regarding running for a position on the Trust's board. As someone who considers themselves a popular figure among the club's fans - a non-league 'man of the people', if you will - and clearly has so many ideas and solutions, why not go for it?
I am not aware of your history with the Trust or the Football Club, but someone with so much to say on the matter seems wasted sitting on the sidelines, don't you agree?

I hope I've been of some help in your fight against the Mafia that is the St Albans City Trust, and I look forward to seeing your name on the ballot paper.

[midweeksaint]

Gaz

To be clear I am paid up member number 30.

Cheers

MWS

[AFF]

Thanks for that, COYS, and I will follow the link to read whatever it is. I will return to this thread as appropriate but I have to respond immediately on separate points that you have made.
I see that you are a Moderator on here so I assume that you are familiar with the rules of the forum concerning the posting of messages, COYS?
Firstly, it doesn't occur to me to consider my level of popularity with anyone, one way or another, so I'm not sure where you form the incorrect view that you state.
Secondly, I imagine that a minor detail of running for office at the Trust requires the candidate to be a member of it. If so, I don't qualify. Thanks for your interest, however, and I'm sure that you will find someone more worthy to vote for on the night.
And finally, your comment suggesting that Saints City Trust is akin to the Mafia is unworthy of anyone let alone a Moderator on here. Perhaps you will stand by for a mild reprimand from one of your colleagues.
Thanks for your help.

[COYS]

"Secondly, I imagine that a minor detail of running for office at the Trust requires the candidate to be a member of it. If so, I don't qualify. Thanks for your interest, however, and I'm sure that you will find someone more worthy to vote for on the night."

I consider it a shame that you don't see improving the Club and the Trust with your immeasurably positive influence worth the £10 membership fee.

"A|nd (sic) finally, your comment suggesting that Saints City Trust is akin to the Mafia is unworthy of anyone let alone a Moderator on here. Perhaps you will stand by for a mild reprimand from one of your colleagues."

I would suggest that you ensure you're aware of the connotations of the language you use (specifically your use of the term 'Omerta') before reprimanding me on mine. Then perhaps you'll realise that the pot is calling the kettle black.

But I'm glad you are aware of the rules on this forum and are doing your utmost to follow them, I do appreciate that. So if you would like to carry on what you perceive as the off-topic strands of this conversation, you could always direct message me.

[AFF]

You forget that as a lifetime member of the Supporters club, I qualify for 3 years 'free' membership of the Trust, COYS, but I haven't taken advantage of that offer.
So the Trust membership must consider whether it is right to hold the current bank balance in the Trust's accounts while waiting for the football club to 'get into financial difficulties', and/or to wait to purchase shares in the company that is the club, without the additional £10 from me.

[COYS]

I can't help but think we're going round in circles here, AFF.

As the newsletter explained, the Trust has spent another £2,000 on essential maintenance of the ground, which presumably (though I could be mistaken) comes out of the the £15,000 that you reliably suggest. Now, my Mathematics skills only go as far as GCSE-level, but I make that a contribution that can only be made for the next seven-and-a-half years. This is if they make no other contribution to the running of the club.

For me, this isn't withholding the cash against the members' or the club's interests. For me, this is aiding the club with integral running costs, allowing more money to be invested in the team and other areas of the club.

If you have concerns about the way the Trust is run - where its money is going, its transparency, its sustainability - then I can only suggest you do something about it. Until then, I don't really see what you expect from these posts, but by all means carry on to your heart's content.

That's all I have to say on the matter.

[AFF]

Circular thinking, eh, COYS? But you can speak for yourself. I am more intrigued than ever.
And in passing, I'm pleased that you have dropped the sarcasm, COYS. I have taken the trouble to copy one of the forum rules most recently quoted by Daedalus on another thread a week or so ago:

"I would like to reiterate two of key (sic) forum guidelines. Firstly, do not post simply to incite a reaction from a fellow poster(s)......

And by the way, this is not a reprimand (as you suggest) much less an official complaint about you COYS, just a friendly reminder. If I have any issues, I am more than capable of discussing them with the other moderators on here.

[COYS]

Irony's a wonderful thing, AFF.

As someone who clearly has the forum's guidelines ingrained on their mind, it strikes me as odd that you are so eager to break them.
This thread is going off topic, so with my moderator (I don't insist on a capital M, but I do appreciate it) hat on, I ask you to either return to the subject of this thread, or message me or one of the other Moderators (starting to like that capital M) about your concerns.

Or you could start a discussion on the 'Off Topic' board, as I know you love the public forum.