Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2012 13:13:00 GMT
Circular thinking, eh, COYS? But you can speak for yourself. I am more intrigued than ever. And in passing, I'm pleased that you have dropped the sarcasm, COYS. I have taken the trouble to copy one of the forum rules most recently quoted by Daedalus on another thread a week or so ago: "I would like to reiterate two of key (sic) forum guidelines. Firstly, do not post simply to incite a reaction from a fellow poster(s)...... And by the way, this is not a reprimand (as you suggest) much less an official complaint about you COYS, just a friendly reminder. If I have any issues, I am more than capable of discussing them with the other moderators on here. of course AFF you couldnt be accused of the bit you highlighted in bold Another "need to know" basis, huh? I shoulda figured. 'Omerta', the code of silence once again. Thanks gaz.
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AFF
Saints Youth Team Player
Posts: 100
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Post by AFF on Sept 5, 2012 13:47:15 GMT
So the thread began with an "idea" for the Trust to show support for the club by using supporters money to fund the installation of a new kitchen in the bar. There was then some debate concerning the basis upon which the Trust is to spend that money and I confess to still further confusion in that regard prompted by the Trust's newsletter which appears to contradict the position outlined at the Fans Forum. Does anyone know whether the Trust Officers still have monthly meetings, and if so, the date of the next one, please? And if not, the date of its AGM? Does anyone apart from me and EFMTFTV consider that the funding of the kitchen is a project that the Trust should consider? If not, why not? Thanks.
(Oh, by the way. Gaz. Daedalus highlighted the bit in bold.)
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Post by EFMTFTV on Sept 5, 2012 14:55:54 GMT
A lot of people seem to come on here to defend the trust but nobody seems to defend what they do, what do they do? I did suggest they paid for the kitchen work as I felt if would be a long term sustainable project after I found out the trust weren't giving money to the club in actual cash form
When the club is playing bad people vote with their feet, the new membership period starts on Oct 1st and it'll be interesting to see if people vote with their apathy
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AFF
Saints Youth Team Player
Posts: 100
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Post by AFF on Sept 5, 2012 15:17:53 GMT
I'm putting you down as a yes then EFMTFTV. The playful side of me is tempted to make the assumption that anyone on here who doesn't say 'No' is in favour. That means 26,999 in favour, and only COYS against. Well, I suspect that gaz is against,too but 26,998 to 2 is a pretty clear majority. We could suggest that a space is left on the wall for a framed share certificate. I favour a yellow (old gold) and blue kitchen. Not for AFF Towers - a trifle garish for home use - but entirely appropriate for the Mighty Saints clubhouse.. Let's give the other 26,000 odd a little time to contribute.
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AFF
Saints Youth Team Player
Posts: 100
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Post by AFF on Sept 6, 2012 8:39:16 GMT
I have done my best. Without any level of scientific study, I guess that some 40 or 50 Saintsfans are regular visitors to this site and of those, perhaps 20 or 30 are regular contributors. I have tried to encourage debate concerning issues surrounding the Trust and the obvious place to do so is among Saintsfans who care enough to visit this site regularly. The Trust currently is holding £12-15,000 of supporters money, of which a minimum of £9,000 has been held for over 3 years, and I consider both of those to be very wrong as a principle. I do not believe that a majority of the membership of the Trust would support the retention of that level of cash and I do not believe that a majority of supporters of the football club would support that either. The owners of the football club appear to be doing their best to get us out of this dang League and the withholding of supporters money in this fashion is not assisting. The football club has withdrawn the facility for the Trust to collect and withhold money this season, quite rightly in my view, but the Trust have not declared that to its membership. It has not declared that it has no opportunity to raise money in the ground in its latest newsletter, nor has it mentioned any forthcoming fund-raising activities for its own purposes other than appealing to members to pay the £10 annual subscription with effect from October 1st. Put kindly, I consider that in itself to be disingenuous, and, most certainly, yet another example of the Trust's lack of openness and transparency. I have put forward a suggestion involving the Trust funding a 'sustainable project' at a cost of the order of £8,000, a sum which would leave a very considerable amount iin the Trust's bank account. Such a gesture might begin the process of resolving the clear difficulties between the football club and the Trust. I have tried to encourage debate on here but only a couple of people have made any contribution to it. Maybe the rest don't care. That's possible. Maybe the rest fully support the position that the Trust is currently in but aren't interested in declaring their view for whatever reason. That's possible, too. Maybe, as EFMTFTV has posed, a number will simply choose not to renew their subscription to the Trust. And that's possible, too. I have also recognised and applauded the continuing efforts of Ian Rogers and a couple of his colleagues to assist the football club on matchdays. Only one person has openly declared support for the Trust's current approach - and he/she might not be alone, of course, but he/she is the only one to have voiced it - and he/she seems to think that a payment by the Trust to the football club of £2,000 each year for the next 7 years or so is entirely appropriate. He/she is entitled to that view, of course, but how does he/she feel now that the football club have withdrawn all fund-raising opportunities from the Trust as a result? And it would appear that the supporters of this football club no longer have a seat on the board as a result. It needs to be sorted out but the threads on here over the past 3 weeks or so have not given any indication of any interest in finding a way to do so. And it is regular and concerned fans who come on here. As I have stated elsewhere, my own view is that the Supporters Club/Trust should be a representative body, open and transparent in its aims and direction. It should represent all (make that all) the fans of the football club in regular dealings with the football club, and certainly should have a seat on the board. It should co-ordinate the efforts of individual fans in supporting the football club and all monies raised by the Trust in the name of the football club should be made available for the benefit of the football club. That is clearly not the case with Saints City Trust. I have done my best and failed here. As I also said elsewhere, the supporters deserve the form of Trust and the form of football club that they have got.
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Post by St Michael on Sept 6, 2012 9:38:42 GMT
I am not sure about the kitchen project, although I can see that it would be useful. I am mostly concerned about who is playing for us, and whether or not we are winning. I am not convinced by this squad or this manager but there are some promising signs. I think the squad has too many older players in it, and still lacks the ability to physically boss games, but anyway.
The Trust issue is worrying though, and I had not understood until AFF pointed it out, that the Trust can no longer raise funds itself inside the ground. Doesn't this indicate at least a rift with the Board of some sort that the Trust should be informing it's members about ?
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AFF
Saints Youth Team Player
Posts: 100
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Post by AFF on Sept 6, 2012 9:46:10 GMT
Hi M&S. I remember one Supporters Club AGM where one member stood up and said that, in his view, "every single penny" of supporters money should be spent on the playing squad, and in response, another member stood up and said that, in his view, "not one penny" of supporters money should be donated to the playing budget. It is for the Officers for the Supporters Club/Trust to find common ground. The Trust's Officers' have chosen not to mention the current position concerning the football club's withdrawal of fund-raising opportunities in the ground in the latest newsletter.
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Post by yorkshirebranch on Sept 7, 2012 0:35:04 GMT
Can the new Kitchen cook chips please, and a French stick roll for hotdogs is a must
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2012 4:57:48 GMT
So the thread began with an "idea" (Oh, by the way. Gaz. Daedalus highlighted the bit in bold.) by the way, making wild accusations then not retracting them, that wouldn't be right now would it AFF.
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bushay
Saints Trialist
Posts: 9
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Post by bushay on Sept 7, 2012 11:15:45 GMT
Having spent many an hour in that kitchen, I think AFF's original idea on this thread has considerable merit and would certainly seem a fantastic way for The Trust/Supporters to contribute to the long term viability of the club. It would also tie in with previous contributions of the SC that included purchasing new kitchen equipment such as a glass washer.
Perhaps a poll could be set up on here, like the MoTM ones, and then people could vote without having to comment. The forum could then pass the results onto The Trust.
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euclid
Saints Reserve Team Player
Posts: 461
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Post by euclid on Sept 7, 2012 17:26:15 GMT
Have the Club approached the Trust about funding the new kitchen? If not, then what is the actual point of this thread?
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AFF
Saints Youth Team Player
Posts: 100
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Post by AFF on Sept 9, 2012 3:19:59 GMT
Hi Euclid. Thanks for that contribution. So. "What is the actual point of this thread?". Hmnnn. A tricky question that but I will do my best to help you. An idea occurred to me involving the funding by the Trust of the installation of a new kitchen in the Saints Bar at a cost of £8,000 or so which would save the club a minimum of £100 per home game. That seemed like a worthwhile project for supporters money to fund and I wondered whether other Saintsfans might agree. So I started the thread. EFMTFTV and Bushay think it's a good idea, midweeksaint is undecided and COYS doesn't. You euclid, were to ask an Official of the Trust some questions. Any luck with any answers yet?) Thanks in anticipation. So. That was the point of the thread. Does it need "a point" beyond that? It seemed to me to be in accordance with the scrolling thingies on the home page. I hope it doesn't offend you. Well, not before you have helped us out with the Trust's responses, anyway. (Do you need me to remind you of the points you were to make to the Trust, euclid?
Hi gaz. Thanks for that. Having a bad day, were you?
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Sept 9, 2012 4:52:01 GMT
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Post by panshanger on Sept 9, 2012 6:58:41 GMT
seems a very good debate, i think new kitchin would be great for clubhouse and fans all round, good food good footy brings back many floating supporters, thumbs up!
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Post by Canary Saint on Sept 9, 2012 7:07:26 GMT
Hmmmmmmm - Isn't this all getting a little too personal?
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AFF
Saints Youth Team Player
Posts: 100
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Post by AFF on Sept 9, 2012 9:50:39 GMT
No offence taken by me, Canarysaint, but thanks for your concern. When this thread started, the last missive from the Trust was the April newsletter. When this thread started, the last minutes of monthly board meetings posted on their web-site was for January 2011. Since the thread started, the August 2012 newsletter was posted (at the beginning of September but let's not split hairs) and the web-site has been up-dated with details of monthly board meetings to January 2012. Those are facts. The football club took direct responsibilty for fund-raising within Clarence Park in the Summer. The Trust no longer carry out any fundraising within Clarence Park for their own benefit. The Trust have no means of raising funds within the ground this season and will rely on annual subscriptions from its members. The Trust have chosen to remain silent concerning those minor matters in their latest newsletter. Those are facts. At the last Fans Forum, a past senior official of the Trust explained that the Trust is holding supporters money in order to assist the club if it ever gets into financial difficulties and to be ready to buy shares in the club if any ever become available. That is a fact. The Trust's newsletter indicates that it donated £2,000 to the football club during the Summer. EFMTFTV recalls a conversation with Trust Official who said that the Trust will only donate money for "sustainable projects". No matter how hard I try, I cannot establish how much supporters money the Trust is currently holding from its web-site. I calculate that it is comfortably in excess of £10,000 taking account of the £2,000 donation made during the Summer - and that only came to light after this thread had started. I have taken care to praise Ian Rogers and a couple of his colleagues, for whom I have high personal regard, who assist the football club's fund-raising efforts on matchdays. The thought of any individual stealing money doesn't enter my head. I know that there was an unfortunate situation in the very early days of the old supporters club but I know that the individual involved with that is no longer associated with the club. And by the way. As far as the shortcomings of the Trust are concerned, I fully recognise that it relies upon volunteers with regard to updating the web-site etc. If the Trust's apologistas on here would give a little of their time to their Trust rather than criticising anyone on here who has anything to say that isn't expressing blind faith in the Trust, maybe, just maybe, we wouldn't be in the position that we are now in. And midweeksaint can speak for himself. As a friendly observation, take a step back, gaz, and look at what you are posting.
So euclid. A couple of posts on here in favour of the Trust spending supporters money in a new kitchen, I see. They must get the point. Please let us know when you have spoken to a Trust official or de you prefer to post accusing me of .. what was it?.. trust bashing?
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euclid
Saints Reserve Team Player
Posts: 461
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Post by euclid on Sept 9, 2012 12:00:10 GMT
I have spoke to one of the Trust board members, thanks for asking by the way! I have asked some questions and given my views. The conversation will remain private so sorry to disappoint you!
A couple of questions AFF.
1) Why did you walk away from the Trust working party? 2) Do you not think your views might be taken more seriously if a)You part with your £10 and become a member and b) you do as you suggest us 'Trust apologistas' do and give a little time to the Trust? You seem to have a lot of ideas, and it seems wasted just posting on this forum waiting to get a reaction!
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kermit
Saints Trialist
Posts: 94
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Post by kermit on Sept 9, 2012 12:31:40 GMT
And by the way. As far as the shortcomings of the Trust are concerned, I fully recognise that it relies upon volunteers with regard to updating the web-site etc. If the Trust's apologistas on here would give a little of their time to their Trust rather than criticising anyone on here who has anything to say that isn't expressing blind faith in the Trust, maybe, just maybe, we wouldn't be in the position that we are now in. You really are quite unbelievable. As a former member of the Supporters Club Committee I had considered putting my name forward for election to the Board of the Trust at the last two AGM's. Having seen the way that you behave on both this and the previous Forum, I've long since decided that I don't need the hassle. I can only begin to imagine the impact that your behaviour has had on current and previous Board members. To return your comments back to you, it's a shame that YOU don't give a little of YOUR time to their Trust rather than criticising it. The damage that you do to the Trust WILL ultimately damage the club. Your history of postings on both message boards speaks for itself. I suspect that anyone involved with the Trust have long since decided that these message boards are not the place to discuss their activities when faced with mis-leading and inaccurate postings. I suspect that the lack of response to your postings is because you are being ignored and nothing else.
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Post by Daedalus on Sept 9, 2012 12:34:29 GMT
When this thread started, the last minutes of monthly board meetings posted on their web-site was for January 2011. Since the thread started, [...] the web-site has been up-dated with details of monthly board meetings to January 2012. That is incorrect. January 2011 was a typo on the website. All that was changed was the year to 2012 in the list of meeting minutes available. So exactly the same meeting minutes have been available the whole time (i.e. had you clicked January 2011, it would have given you January 2012 minutes). Further meeting minutes are due to be added to the board meetings page but there have been some technical difficulties with the website. Hopefully this will be resolved soon.
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Post by Daedalus on Sept 9, 2012 13:29:58 GMT
I think that this thread has run its course and that it is time for it to be closed. It has been open for quite a while now and so I believe that we have given everybody who wanted to their chance to have their say on the subject.
I feel it necessary to underline the fact that the Saints Chat fans' forum is not an official communication channel with the Saints City Trust. We are a completely independent forum and not affiliated with anyone. Therefore, the best method of contacting someone from the Trust, or for getting questions answered, is to contact the Trust through an official channel such as in person on match day or electronically through their website and/or e-mail.
The reason for closing this thread is not only because it has run its course but also because I am concerned that the forum guidelines are not being followed here. In particular, I would like to remind everyone of the following Saints Chat guidelines specifically:
- Do not post with the intention to antagonise others (trolling)
- Do not post simply to incite a reaction from a fellow poster.
- Users who post solely to tarnish the name of the Trust, or volunteers/people who give up their free time purely for the love of the club will not be tolerated.
- Always try to be constructive. Posts with the sole intention of 'ranting' will be closed. Constructive criticism however, is always welcome, and the occasional light-hearted post 'letting off steam' is not a problem.
This thread could also be considered a misleading one, with the information being discussed based on speculation and rumour rather than any information directly from the Trust. Therefore, I propose that any debate concerning the Trust should wait until after the AGM when its official documentation will become available.
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