What on earth has happened to Clarence Park?

[boojiboy]

I like to attend pre-season friendlies to see how the squad is developing. What I did not expect to see is what I can only describe as destruction of a significant portion of our once beautiful stadium. What on earth is going on and how has this been allowed to happen?

I have to admit that I do cut myself off from matters relating to the football club for a well deserve break over the summer. Were fans advised of this development? Were supporters groups advised? Was this discussed with the council who own the ground, what were their comments? I can see that an an earlier thread mentions this work and includes a link to the club website which mentions this work (very briefly).

If the concrete surface was cracking could this not have been dug up and re-surfaced with deeper foundations? The extent and cost of the work would surely be significantly less then flattening the whole area. This area has also encroached onto the pitch area and the plan is clearly to provide more food concessions, something which is touched upon on the website.

Clarence Park was gifted to the people of St Albans to be used as a sporting and recreation ground, not a place to sell fast food. There are already plenty of outlets in the ground. Clarence Park is (was) widely regarded as being one of the sporting venues that have to be visited at some time to watch a match. People travel from all over the country (as well as Europe) to visit Clarence Park. A place of beauty, harking back to a different era, a little bit rough around the ages but a perfect place to watch football and far better equipped to watch football at this level (and higher) then other more modern stadia. Just look at the shambles a few months ago at Oxford City!

I have turned a blind eye to some some of the recent changes at Clarence Park but the destruction of a huge chunk of the Clarence Road terrace is horrendous. Are people not able to come to a 90 minute football match without eating? If people are coming to games purely for the non-football attractions, I would rather they stay at home. Three generations of my family have stood on that Clarence Road terrace and now a large part of it has gone.

What have these changes done to the capacity at Clarence Park? It was already becoming difficult to find somewhere to watch games when there was a big crowd, this will now be much harder. Moving the segregation area to the middle of the Cola stand as well putting the totally random seating in part of it significantly reduces this area which is a favoured spot for many of the long-standing supporters. Those who choose to still stand there will have a severely restricted view.

Why have these changes taken place? Why has our beautiful ground been scarred in this way?

[saintsfan8]

It will be interesting to see how much of it gets used for food outlets.

I thought the area in front of the hospitality area (if left for standing) gave a really good close up experience of the game. But I guess it depends on what this is used for.

The flattening of the entrance area looks like it is to provide a segregated away area as there is a new gate next to the coca cola stand with some seats. I assumed this was to become compliant in the national league and to provide more fan zones to drink at half time. Both of which are a positive sign of intent that promotion is something we should be achieve.

It is possible that I was being a bit naive though.

[lagerman]

I'm interested in having a look at this myself tomorrow night when we play Maidenhead

[euclid]

Once again the Club's communication is being questioned. It wouldn't of hurt to make a proper announcement of why these changes are being made.
The ground looks dreadful nowadays. The club is turning into another Dulwich Hamlet, full of attendees who are only there for the beer and food !!

[COYS]

Jul 17, 2023 10:03:23 GMT euclid said:

Once again the Club's communication is being questioned. It wouldn't of hurt to make a proper announcement of why these changes are being made.
The ground looks dreadful nowadays. The club is turning into another Dulwich Hamlet, full of attendees who are only there for the beer and food !!

Well, they did make a proper announcement but why let facts get in the way of a good moan.

And on your second point, that’s just bizarre gate keeping. What do you want to do, survey supporters on their way in with regards to how much they love the Saints? Test them on their knowledge of City history?

At this level, there will only ever be a few hundred real supporters of the club at any one game, that’s a fact. The rest will be there for the day out, the alternative match day experience. The food and drink is part of that and, with a ground like ours where we can’t rent out for facilities and events, is a primary income for funding the team.

There’s a weird trend on here of the club being criticised for not wanting to go for promotion, and yet when the owners do anything at all to prepare the club for such an eventuality, that’s taken apart too. Bizarre.

[saintsdad]

Jul 17, 2023 10:18:18 GMT COYS said:

with a ground like ours where we can’t rent out for facilities and events

Why can't we rent it out for facilities and events? If it's a case of asking for permission from the council, just don't bother

Did anyone go to Brewfest?

[euclid]

Jul 17, 2023 10:18:18 GMT COYS said:

Jul 17, 2023 10:03:23 GMT euclid said:

Once again the Club's communication is being questioned. It wouldn't of hurt to make a proper announcement of why these changes are being made.
The ground looks dreadful nowadays. The club is turning into another Dulwich Hamlet, full of attendees who are only there for the beer and food !!

Well, they did make a proper announcement but why let facts get in the way of a good moan.

And on your second point, that’s just bizarre gate keeping. What do you want to do, survey supporters on their way in with regards to how much they love the Saints? Test them on their knowledge of City history?

At this level, there will only ever be a few hundred real supporters of the club at any one game, that’s a fact. The rest will be there for the day out, the alternative match day experience. The food and drink is part of that and, with a ground like ours where we can’t rent out for facilities and events, is a primary income for funding the team.

There’s a weird trend on here of the club being criticised for not wanting to go for promotion, and yet when the owners do anything at all to prepare the club for such an eventuality, that’s taken apart too. Bizarre.

I must have missed the announcement, sorry about that.
No need to be so condescending towards my points. As a moderator, I thought you were better than that !!

[minty]

The new seats and the segregation barriers in the Cola stand are a complete joke. Firstly when there was the downpour on Saturday all of those seats got covered in water courtesy of the leaky roof. I was standing nearby and water was also dripping in on me. I suggest the club needs to do some work on the roof to that stand.
As for the segregation barrier it is a safety hazard due to it causing a bottle neck if supporters use that route to change ends at half-time if segregation is not being implemented for a fixture.

[boojiboy]

Jul 17, 2023 10:18:18 GMT COYS said:

Jul 17, 2023 10:03:23 GMT euclid said:

Once again the Club's communication is being questioned. It wouldn't of hurt to make a proper announcement of why these changes are being made.
The ground looks dreadful nowadays. The club is turning into another Dulwich Hamlet, full of attendees who are only there for the beer and food !!

Well, they did make a proper announcement but why let facts get in the way of a good moan.

And on your second point, that’s just bizarre gate keeping. What do you want to do, survey supporters on their way in with regards to how much they love the Saints? Test them on their knowledge of City history?

At this level, there will only ever be a few hundred real supporters of the club at any one game, that’s a fact. The rest will be there for the day out, the alternative match day experience. The food and drink is part of that and, with a ground like ours where we can’t rent out for facilities and events, is a primary income for funding the team.

There’s a weird trend on here of the club being criticised for not wanting to go for promotion, and yet when the owners do anything at all to prepare the club for such an eventuality, that’s taken apart too. Bizarre.

Without wishing to reply on behalf of euclid, in my initial posting I did comment that I take a break from football matters over the summer and quite frankly I have no interest in trawling through social media, most of which would have no interest to me anyway. If a proper announcement has been made, please direct me/us to it as I would be genuinely interested in knowing what has been said. If you are referring to the comment of the club website, I already described the description as ‘very briefly’ I.e. lack of detail. Also, the other post was dated 6th July advising that the terrace had been levelled whereas the post on the club website, also dated 6th July, states that the terrace ‘WILL be flattened’. The original post indicates that the work had already been undertaken. So not really a proper announcement.

Clarence Park and the football ground are areas of beauty and as I mentioned previously, the football ground is known for this. Just speak to any football fan on an away trip. Importantly, it is also in a Conservation Area and so these types of changes need to be agreed by the council. I am very unhappy with the council if they have signed off these changes to our beautiful park so that a few more burgers can be flipped.

Your comments about ‘a few hundred real supporters’ at any one game are incorrect.

With regard to your criticism of people not being happy with the over-commercialisation of Clarence Park I.e. turning us into another Dulwich Hamlet - please remind me how Dulwich did last year?

[theduke]

Some people on here “Saints Moan” have no idea how a business is run.

[euclid]

Jul 17, 2023 12:22:36 GMT theduke said:

Some people on here “Saints Moan” have no idea how a business is run.

I'm sure most of us have experience of working in business theduke. How about you?
Would be very interesting to see how much the club makes now through beer and food sales?
Whatever the profit is, I'm not sure that justifies demolishing parts of the ground and creating potential safety hazards.

The original post raised some very valid points. But of course any slight criticism of the club has to be 'moaning' !!

[sacfcfan23]

I only recently started going to games last season and thought it was such a great experience, lots of nice people, you can even chat to players, manager, owners- and have a pint whilst watching a game (so not what I was used to from higher up the leagues). But, wow, I didn't realise how much vitriol there is from some of the indigenous population - its just like the FB groups, do we need to badged based on how long we have been resident..! The ground changes - obviously done to better accommodate bigger crowds and potential promotion -are much needed if the club wants to continue to grow the crowds. Bizarrely, it seems like some don't want success. Was it more like a social club then before the days of 2000+ crowds?

[saintsman2000]

Jul 17, 2023 13:33:54 GMT sacfcfan23 said:

Was it more like a social club then before the days of 2000+ crowds?

To be honest before the 2000+ crowds it was more of an old peoples home with no aspirations to grow

[euclid]

Jul 17, 2023 13:33:54 GMT sacfcfan23 said:

I only recently started going to games last season and thought it was such a great experience, lots of nice people, you can even chat to players, manager, owners- and have a pint whilst watching a game (so not what I was used to from higher up the leagues). But, wow, I didn't realise how much vitriol there is from some of the indigenous population - its just like the FB groups, do we need to badged based on how long we have been resident..! The ground changes - obviously done to better accommodate bigger crowds and potential promotion -are much needed if the club wants to continue to grow the crowds. Bizarrely, it seems like some don't want success. Was it more like a social club then before the days of 2000+ crowds?

Are you aware if we get promoted to the National League, you won't be able to drink in view of the pitch !!
sgsa.org.uk/alcohol-at-football-grounds/

Also, will the ground capacity not be reduced due to the changes made?

Not sure it's vitriol, just fans having an opinion. Describing them as the 'indigenous population' is a bit bizarre though !!

[sacfcfan23]

Jul 17, 2023 14:52:30 GMT euclid said:

Jul 17, 2023 13:33:54 GMT sacfcfan23 said:

I only recently started going to games last season and thought it was such a great experience, lots of nice people, you can even chat to players, manager, owners- and have a pint whilst watching a game (so not what I was used to from higher up the leagues). But, wow, I didn't realise how much vitriol there is from some of the indigenous population - its just like the FB groups, do we need to badged based on how long we have been resident..! The ground changes - obviously done to better accommodate bigger crowds and potential promotion -are much needed if the club wants to continue to grow the crowds. Bizarrely, it seems like some don't want success. Was it more like a social club then before the days of 2000+ crowds?

Are you aware if we get promoted to the National League, you won't be able to drink in view of the pitch !!
sgsa.org.uk/alcohol-at-football-grounds/

Also, will the ground capacity not be reduced due to the changes made?

Not sure it's vitriol, just fans having an opinion. Describing them as the 'indigenous population' is a bit bizarre though !!

I'm fully aware and also aware also of NL clubs that screen off bars so pitch can't be viewed. Looks like changes would make it much improved for away fans where segregation needed. The comment was simply about how some people think they are in some way better because they have lived there longer. They also often wear rose tinted glasses and think their past was so much better than the now! Look through the comments on this forum. You'd think the 'old regulars' hate new fans and kids! Lots of suggestions the kids get in for free too. But my two teens pay, as do all their mates. Its under 12s who get in free with an adult - which is what many clubs appear to do

[theduke]

Jul 17, 2023 13:14:28 GMT euclid said:

Jul 17, 2023 12:22:36 GMT theduke said:

Some people on here “Saints Moan” have no idea how a business is run.

I'm sure most of us have experience of working in business theduke. How about you?
Would be very interesting to see how much the club makes now through beer and food sales?
Whatever the profit is, I'm not sure that justifies demolishing parts of the ground and creating potential safety hazards.

The original post raised some very valid points. But of course any slight criticism of the club has to be 'moaning' !!

A lot of people work in business, not all understand how one is run.

It's not slight criticism, it's pretty much in every thread.

With your quote above "creating potential safety hazards" are you saying that the owners place profit above the safety of the fans?

[norfamptonsaint]

If there is no desire for promotion while the club continues to play at Clarence Park, please could it include the reinstatement of an oak tree behind the goal on the Hatfield Road terrace among the ground improvements that it is making.

[euclid]

One of the posts earlier mentioned a potential safety hazard being caused due to the new segregation barrier.
I'm sure the club will look in to the issue that was raised.

[euclid]

Jul 17, 2023 16:51:00 GMT norfamptonsaint said:

If there is no desire for promotion while the club continues to play at Clarence Park, please could it include the reinstatement of an oak tree behind the goal on the Hatfield Road terrace among the ground improvements that it is making.

One for the oldies that one !!

[EFMTFTV]

I spoke to LL on Saturday and the area is to be used for an away fan zone, much like the home one, for segregated games. there is no plans to segregate this season as a matter of course but any cup run / big league game could be if recommended by safety
It will also house some new toilets, which are way way overdue, in line with the the increase of attendances

As for the ground generally, I remember a very heated fans forum in July 2019 when the club announced plans to increase the price to £18, with 500 of us rattling around the stadium. One thing I certainly brought up was the fact the match day experience was crap, we sold terrible beer in a terrible clubhouse and had crap food and this was now going to be £18, the crowds plummeted that season.
It was pointed out that cheaper admission would, bring in more people and a better match day experience would as well.

It pains me to use Dulwich as an example but I think we need to, their crowds went up from 300 to 3000 with nice beer and nice food in the ground for a better match day experience. At the time the club said they didn't think the Dulwich model would work at St Albans and one particular sycophantic supporter who wouldn't say a word against the owners even if they said they were going to execute their children, pointed out that that admission + pint + chips at Dulwich was more that the same at City, but totally missing the point that our pint and chips are poo poo whilst Dulwich's were nice. Anyway, I digress......

The days of arrving at 1445, having a bovril and watching a match are over, all over the world the game is being a whole day experience, I've been to German games and it's all sausages and beer and entertainment. A friend of mine supports Accrington and they put on bands for the away fans to get them in early and generate money.

I agree the ground has lost some of it's charm but we now have facilities for the bigger fan base, the food (remember the viral Belgium waffle tweet) and beers are so much better now, and who doesn't like seeing the ground packed to the rafters?

[lagerman]

Reading all that's been said on here about this recent work on the ground, well, if it is going to benefit the beer and burger brigade, then so be it l suppose.
If the owners are trying to improve sales of such, to improve revenue, then so be it.
Of course l don't mind a beer and burger myself, but l very rarely drink in the ground

I'd imagine, and I'd certainly hope, that they are trying to get the Club on a sustainable footing first and foremost, to get us in a better financial position to go up, but it's the old devil and the deep blue sea situation, we need the squad, we need the team, to go up, one doesn't work without the other

[lagerman]

Well, having seen the ground tonight, yeah well, l'd imagine that they'd have to put some sort of drink and food bars in that bit that's had to be flattened.
As for the small block of seats under the Coca-Cola stand .... well it looks a bit of an odd arrangement to me, that, but I'm sure the Club must know what they are doing.

[bob666]

Change is always a bit ambiguous. A lot of hardcore Man City fans preferred the gallows humour and sense of comradely that was present during away tips to Leyton Orient in the 1980s. I miss elements of the old days of 500 crowds etc but accept the inevitability of change. Two things. First, some times it feels like the club combines the worst elements of non-league amateurism and the new commercialism. So I tried to use the priority pints app on Saturday as this had actively marketed by the club. The app sold me a beer the club did not have tap, the people at the appointed pickup point knew nothing about it and there was no clear point of contact to resolve the issue. It all felt very amateurism. At the same time, I think aiming to maximise revenue through increasing food and beverage sales makes sense. But there is a disjuncture. The beer offering is very good- when everything is on tap but really the food offering has not evolved at all since the halcyon days of 500 in the Southern league. If you going go along the commercial/broader fan experience model than at least do it well.

[hoofit]

Never mind the reasons and the for or against, It just looks bloody awful!

[saintsman2000]

Jul 31, 2023 18:08:24 GMT hoofit said:

Never mind the reasons and the for or against, It just looks bloody awful!

Getting sentimental over some concrete

[boojiboy]

It’s in a public park and within a Conservation Area, so actually it is quite important.

[hoofit]

Jul 31, 2023 18:52:12 GMT saintsman2000 said:

Jul 31, 2023 18:08:24 GMT hoofit said:

Never mind the reasons and the for or against, It just looks bloody awful!

Getting sentimental over some concrete

So you think it looks good and is an improvement to the park and conservation area?

I am not sentimental over concrete - it just looks bloody awful, and you are welcome to disagree and think it looks lovely.

[saintsman2000]

Aug 3, 2023 14:12:20 GMT hoofit said:

Jul 31, 2023 18:52:12 GMT saintsman2000 said:

I am not sentimental over concrete - it just looks bloody awful, and you are welcome to disagree and think it looks lovely.

Well it doesn’t make it look worse and when it is full of fans on a match day its makes no real difference. Also the upgrades makes it way more accessible for those in wheelchairs and others with mobility issues.