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Post by PaperSaint on Sept 24, 2015 11:53:01 GMT
My comment is valid because they are charging for a product which isnt worth that price. Being the most expensive club in the league yet performing as one of the worst. So how they meant to generate the income needed to compete at this level? You might have noticed that other clubs have function rooms, public bars, 3G training pitches etc that generate regular income- and we have....?
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Post by Boomer on Sept 24, 2015 12:16:57 GMT
[quote author=" jj123" what can they do to influence a couple of owners who rarely attend the games? and you have attended how many games this season ? All game excluding the Ebbsfleet game, and I went to the away games to Eastbourne and Gosport..................... And the band played 'Believe it if you like'.
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Post by jj123 on Sept 24, 2015 12:21:26 GMT
My comment is valid because they are charging for a product which isnt worth that price. Being the most expensive club in the league yet performing as one of the worst. So how they meant to generate the income needed to compete at this level? You might have noticed that other clubs have function rooms, public bars, 3G training pitches etc that generate regular income- and we have....? By not ripping off the supporters - charge less to get in, a fan is more likely to buy a burger, a pint, a programme a shirt. Can't remember who it was, but last season opposition supporters ordered a takeaway Dominos to the ground - that just about summed it all up.
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Post by PaperSaint on Sept 24, 2015 12:31:45 GMT
So a few extra burgers, pints and shirts will finance a team at National League South level... hmmm...
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Post by 2penniesworth on Sept 24, 2015 12:34:23 GMT
Oh jj123 Have you ever considered where any profits made come from: 1. Burgers- outsourced. Club make no money from them 2. Programmes- minimal amount of profit per issue. Revenue from advertising subsidises the programme production and print. Programme is a much needed window into the club for potential sponsors- who may actually provide additional revenue. 3. Shirts and merchandise- profit margins are tight to the extreme and any money made is going back into the shop to try and offer decent merchandise to the supporters at a reasonable cost.
Domino s to the ground doesn't suggest that the Club rips off supporters it suggests that they don't like burgers.
How would you suggest the Club make money- with their current facilities?
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Post by ad43footsoldier on Sept 24, 2015 12:52:44 GMT
My comment is valid because they are charging for a product which isnt worth that price. Being the most expensive club in the league yet performing as one of the worst. What a simplistic opinion. They charge the most because they subsidise the club more than most in this league. They do it to make sure the hit isn't too big financially so they can't sustain the club anymore, because as someone quite rightly pointed out they aren't making profit at any price. Would you rather charge £10, the owners left and we played at a lower level? Because we could never sustain the wage bill without them.
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Post by saintsdad on Sept 24, 2015 12:52:30 GMT
My comment is valid because they are charging for a product which isnt worth that price. Being the most expensive club in the league yet performing as one of the worst. So how they meant to generate the income needed to compete at this level? You might have noticed that other clubs have function rooms, public bars, 3G training pitches etc that generate regular income- and we have....? Not all of them do, surely? Say we finished 10th last year and 15th this year, it wouldn't be because four or five teams suddenly installed 3G training pitches, would it? £15 for Deal Town is a rip off. It sounds like at least one of the owners has now realised that. It's a shame there wasn't this much furore over the ticket prices last season that might've sped up the communication process between owners and all the supporters groups.
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Post by PaperSaint on Sept 24, 2015 13:06:45 GMT
Wealdstone probably closer to us in terms of facilities and look where they are... The rest do have other means of generating income beyond the standard gate receipts/sponsorship etc
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albanian
Saints Reserve Team Player
Posts: 372
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Post by albanian on Sept 24, 2015 13:47:21 GMT
As 2penniesworth mentions all the additional matchday income doesn't add up to a whole lot, so the only way we can be run profitably at this level is by increasing ticket sale income (either through ticket price or attendance).
As much as I was against the price increase last year I can understand why they did it. If ticket prices had stayed at £12 we'd have had to average about 100 more per game to raise the same gate receipts. It's unlikely that we would have. Having said that I don't think they can justify any further hikes as things stand.
Increasing attendances is a tricky one but should be the main focus if we want to compete at this level. The schools scheme is a really important one because it brings people along to matches that wouldn't otherwise have been. Where I think we could be doing more is in giving people reasons to come back.
The food really isn't good enough for a city like St Albans. It may seem like a small point, but it can make the difference when it comes to getting families to return to CP. Wealdstone are obviously a good example for how this could be done better.
Secondly the clubhouse. James has done a great job with it, but it really needs some proper investment to make it a more appealing place to spend time.
Thirdly we need to try and improve the atmosphere. That's easier said that done, but as fans we need to co-ordinate more and make sure we're singing every game.
As much as I'm not a fan, Dulwich Hamlet and Clapton show that you can really grow your support without offering them a whole lot on the pitch. It's the complete match day experience that keeps people coming back.
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Post by PaperSaint on Sept 24, 2015 13:59:45 GMT
Well said Albanian - don't disagree with any of that
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Post by COYS on Sept 24, 2015 14:22:11 GMT
To throw into the debate: The average attendance in the first four home games of 10/11 (our last season in the Blue Square South before relegation: three draws, one defeat) was 359. Can't remember exactly what the entrance fee was but let's say it was £10. This year the average attendance of the first four home games was 546 (again: three defeats and one draw). Of course, there's a lot of other variables I haven't considered (e.g. quality of opposition and indeed our own football), but those numbers in isolation represent a fair bit more being taken in ticket sales at the minute compared to the same stage in 2010/11. As has already been said, this is our primary source of income and, whilst I know my numbers are not and cannot be exact, the takings from ticket sales alone have almost doubled. My take on it is that this is the product of a number of factors: primarily the loyalty of the supporters, but also the hardwork of the owners & others in rejuvenating the spirit around the club, as well as the work of the playing staff as well.
To be clear, I think charging £15 for the Herts Senior Cup last year as well as this more recent decision were ill-judged, but it is easy to see the logic behind the owners' ticket scheme. If the entrance fee is one of the club's primary sources of income, it is only sensible business to try and make the most of it. It'll work as long as that average attendance remains above 500, and the loyal core of the fanbase keeps turning up. Decisions like this week's threaten that, however - but I think/hope the owners have been made well aware of the fact that you can only push that loyal fanbase so far.
I'm personally thankful that we have two groups of supporters willing to speak out when the owners get it wrong, as well as two owners who are willing to listen. Five years ago we had neither of those things. People have short memories.
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Post by scottishsaint on Sept 24, 2015 14:31:16 GMT
dulwich, with their health club and hospitality and 10 pound match ticket and average attendance of 940 should probably be doing a bit better than they are - maybe thats down to the management side of things!
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albanian
Saints Reserve Team Player
Posts: 372
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Post by albanian on Sept 24, 2015 20:04:39 GMT
I agree with COYS, the club's in a much better state than it was a few years ago. It's a more welcoming place and is better promoted online and in the community. Also a lot of credit should go to Lee for what he's done with the shop this year as well as his design work. And Michael has brought a lot of fresh ideas and enthusiasm. I feel like we're most of the way there but the things previously mentioned could do with improvement. Ultimately there's a limit to what we can do whilst we're still at Clarence park. It'll be a very sad day when we leave, but we'll always be fighting against the current until we do. It's awful to see clubs like hemel outmuscle us financially but that's the reality.
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Post by Hatboy on Sept 24, 2015 20:22:41 GMT
the players still expect to paid the same weather they playing Deal Town or Arsenal in the 3rd round. Really they wouldn't expect any kind of bonus, are you sure
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Post by PaperSaint on Sept 24, 2015 20:40:50 GMT
I agree with COYS, the club's in a much better state than it was a few years ago. It's a more welcoming place and is better promoted online and in the community. Also a lot of credit should go to Lee for what he's done with the shop this year as well as his design work. And Michael has brought a lot of fresh ideas and enthusiasm. I feel like we're most of the way there but the things previously mentioned could do with improvement. Ultimately there's a limit to what we can do whilst we're still at Clarence park. It'll be a very sad day when we leave, but we'll always be fighting against the current until we do. It's awful to see clubs like hemel outmuscle us financially but that's the reality. Even the Wood are now talking publicly about their desire to have the same support as us.... www.borehamwoodfootballclub.co.uk/allinson-asks-a-question/
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Post by citycentresaint on Sept 24, 2015 20:41:20 GMT
To be outmuscled financial by Hemel is embarrassing.
It wasn't long ago they struggled to get over 100 fans.
Need to move to a new ground and have a council who supports us.
Can't see that happening for years.
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Post by PaperSaint on Sept 24, 2015 20:52:52 GMT
This year Hemel's budget has been boosted by receiving a rather large amount of dosh for the transfer of one of their key players from last season...
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Post by casper on Sept 24, 2015 21:37:18 GMT
Liverpools Capital One Cup 3rd round tie against Carlisle this week had adult ticket prices between £17 and £23, which had been dropped in price. Guess what? They had a full house.
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Post by casper on Sept 24, 2015 21:45:13 GMT
If the entrance fee is one of the club's primary sources of income, it is only sensible business to try and make the most of it. It'll work as long as that average attendance remains above 500, and the loyal core of the fanbase keeps turning up. Decisions like this week's threaten that, however - but I think/hope the owners have been made well aware of the fact that you can only push that loyal fanbase so far. I'm personally thankful that we have two groups of supporters willing to speak out when the owners get it wrong, as well as two owners who are willing to listen. Five years ago we had neither of those things. People have short memories. We may be getting average crowds over over 500 but how many of those are paying to get in ? Matches were we have schools in for the half-time penalty shootout seem to add 100 - 150 on the gate. Are we giving away free tickets to the schools ? We now have the Trust and Stand By Your Saints speaking on behalf of the supporters. Wouldn't it be better to have one supporters group rather than two ?
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Post by saints17mad on Sept 24, 2015 22:02:29 GMT
In regards to how the club could engage more with the local community, I did speak with someone from the council about this a few years ago.
They raised some very good points in that the city has a very diverse population (different religions, ethnicity, sports and social groups etc.).
I would really like the club to look at how diverse our city is and how diverse our average home crowd is and try to engage and encourage other areas of our community to experience a match day at the club.
Sometimes the answers are standing right in front of you (or lack of being in front of you).
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Post by COYS on Sept 24, 2015 22:59:46 GMT
If the entrance fee is one of the club's primary sources of income, it is only sensible business to try and make the most of it. It'll work as long as that average attendance remains above 500, and the loyal core of the fanbase keeps turning up. Decisions like this week's threaten that, however - but I think/hope the owners have been made well aware of the fact that you can only push that loyal fanbase so far. I'm personally thankful that we have two groups of supporters willing to speak out when the owners get it wrong, as well as two owners who are willing to listen. Five years ago we had neither of those things. People have short memories. We may be getting average crowds over over 500 but how many of those are paying to get in ? Matches were we have schools in for the half-time penalty shootout seem to add 100 - 150 on the gate. Are we giving away free tickets to the schools ? That's a very valid question and one that occurred to me at Saturday's game.
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Post by bob666 on Sept 25, 2015 0:17:31 GMT
Debates of this nature seem to be polarising. Clearly the owners are not the Oystons and pay a sizeable subsidy every year to support the club. Also I don't think there clear evidence that £15 has negatively effected league attendance. If look at relative changes in crowd size between ourselves and Hemel after we when up they about the same despite very different pricing strategies. Ok the ground has limited commercial opportunities and maybe the fans share the burden this creates through higher ticket prices. I not anti the present owners.
On the other hand, if you the owner of a club with a modern ground in non-league there is no potential financial upside. As far as I aware no real clubs make a profit so the ground just makes the club self-sustaining. There is a potential to actually make money from St Albans if you could get permission for a new ground and related development. So can the annual subsidy be seen more as a act of speculation than a altruistic act? We live in a capitalist society, so no criticism for trying to make a profit . But if it the former than you might say that in different forms (highest ticket prices in league, support you saints ) etc than the fans are being expected to support this act of speculation. My issue with fund raising is simple. If they work and fan support is making a significant part of the budget (I understand they may not have reached that stage) than the owners should be prepared to give fan groups a real say in the governance of the club- not just a promise to listen or even token board representation but a capacity to veto major decisions (e.g.. a inappropriate relocation plan). Also if every club has these schemes surely in the end every club is back to were they started, fallacy of composition type argument.
Also in terms of prices Ok be expensive but also be intelligent. In some ways the club has done this. The season tickets were reasonable this year and I also took advantage of the excellent half-season last year. If you charge £15 Ok but you need intelligent to use of promotions etc and flexible to pricing cup games (also might be worth giving the idea of a slightly lower price for mid-week games a whirl? If it does work drop it but maybe £13 would give incentive they need to rush out after dinner- we have a problem with mid week attendance. I also think a flex 15 ticket (for 15 league games of your choice) like Gateshead use is a good idea for regulars who cannot quite commit to every game)
One final point. The food is awful- i know its contracted out but club are still responsible for choosing the contractors. Even by football club standards its terrible (I been 15 different grounds in last 3 years I think we might be the worst). If people are willing to pay £15 pound to get in I assuming they also pay a little more for a burger which is actually edible. surely the wealdstone model of slightly more expensive and better would fit a relatively affluent place (I not saying we all rich just that on average people are better of then in most places) like St Albans well? I always enjoyed a pie or a burger at the football (part of the experience) but just cannot eat the stuff we serve
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Post by PaperSaint on Sept 25, 2015 6:03:00 GMT
A couple of points 1. Diversity - SBYS does have an interest in this and one of our committee members has already met with a local mosque and synagogue but is also arranging meetings with the community liaison staff at Luton and Watford.
2. Food - this is something that has come up many times at SBYS meetings and is something I am sure we will look to discuss further with the club. Personally I'm a non-meat eater (pescatarian!) so there's nothing on offer for me currently - but I think many meat eaters would say the same thing!
But what we need is more volunteers - for SBYS and the trust - to help us to take forward our ideas and initiatives. If anyone wants to help out, just message me here or send an email to getinvolved@StandByYourSaints.com
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Post by saintsdad on Sept 25, 2015 7:20:06 GMT
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Post by notsorecentconvert on Sept 25, 2015 7:49:34 GMT
The idea of intelligent, flexible pricing is a good one. I remember in the Southern League promotion season a couple of years ago there were a number of times when they sold two consecutive home games (a Monday and a Saturday) at a slight discount and I took advantage of that offer.
Of course having a pricing policy that goes up and down can lead to confusion unless people keep up to date with the news. If someone arrives at the turnstiles expecting to pay £10 and finds it's a £15 match that can lead to resentment.
Regarding the attendances, I think they have held up well but I must say, whenever I use the turnstile at the Clarence Park end of the ground I am always surprised at how many people are welcomed in through the side gate without paying.
As for the food, I have to agree with the comments above. It's not the greatest stuff and, after a couple of attempts, I avoid it. On a couple of occasions I've missed lunch, or come to the ground for an evening game straight off the train without dinner. Even then, it's been a bit of a struggle. The big problem for catering at a non-league football match is the size of the potential market. If the crowd is 500, how many of those people are going to buy something? What's the average spend per customer? If a third of the people in the ground (which seems optimistic) spent £4 (which also sounds optimistic), is that enough to persuade a better quality supplier to get involved?
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Post by PaperSaint on Sept 25, 2015 8:08:12 GMT
Allinson is wanting their home support to match ours and that was the only point I was making there. Regarding two supporters group, both work closely together and I feel compliment one another currently. Ultimately the trust has a goal to deliver some element of supporter ownership to the club and SBYS is focused on fundraising for specific goals and promotion if the support in the community. There is overlap in the wider goals but I don't see that as an issue. I'm a member if the trust and SBYS and very happy to support both.
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